Bad things happen to everyone. Illness. Job loss. Financial ruin. Sometimes, people we love very much die. Sometimes we don't know if they're saved. Sometimes we're certain they're not.Sometimes, our hopes for our children are shattered, and we look for someone to blame, even if it's God, even if it's ourselves.Sometimes, bizarre circumstances will arise to defeat us every time we stand on our feet.Sometimes, someone is taken from us in a senseless, violent waste of human life.We aren't safe from these things because we're Christians.Why aren't we? If God is good, and great, and gives good gifts to His children, then why is it still possible for us to be hounded by misfortune?Does God punish us? If He was punishing us, wouldn't He tell us what we were doing wrong so that we could straighten up and please Him? (I do have a friend - not on here- who struggles with this)Does God make you guess what the plan is? If not, how far will He go to be certain you get the right idea? (Shades of Jonah, here - but remember, Jonah knew perfectly well he was supposed to go before any enormous fish/whales got involved)In Christ, through Christ, we can do anything - even survive and be at peace as our world dissolves into madness around us. But why can't we simply avoid the madness?I actually know several scriptures that relate to many of these questions :) However, I am not very good at attaching chapter and verse numbers to them. I read the Bible story by story in context - I ignore the verse numbers. So if you've got the chapter and verse reference, by all means share it.My church covered this in the Life of Job series, too, but it's a major question for a lot of people, Christians and non-Christians alike.And last, which is more important: figuring out why bad things happen, or doing what we are called to do about them?
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There is a book on the subject that I would highly recommend. It is titled "If God is Good: Faith in the Midst of Suffering and Evil." by Randy Alcorn. It is published by Multnomah Books. Lots of Scriptures and excellent insight into the subject.
I suppose it is human nature to blame or point the finger at God when bad things happen in our lives. ...More so than when good things happen, anyway.
But listen, we are promised troubles in this world (John 16:33)- God never promised us a road free of bumps and potholes- but He has promised us that HE has overcome the world, and in that we are to take courage.
Sometimes a bad decision can have a life long consequence. That's not God's abuse. That's life, and what we (mankind) made of it.
Life is simply not fair. No one ever said it would be. Some go through life seemingly without trials or worries, some are just the opposite. We'll never know why this side of the grave.
But, the grace of God lies in the fact that He saves our souls in spite of ourselves, He carries our burdens, He gives us strength to overcome, and He sends His people into our lives.
Your friend is a Catholic- and one shouldn't expect her to change her faith as quickly and easily as she would change her socks- but Catholic or not, she can approach the Lord as you or I... or any sinner for that matter, through the Son. Encourage her to do so. (No man is condemned because they are Catholic, or Episcopalian, of Greek Orthodox, or any denomination/sect... but the man, any man, who rejects Jesus as his Lord and Savior, he is the one who stands condemned.)
And even if her theology is off, pray that the Lord will us these trials to show her the Truth.
Encourage her to spend time in the Word, and in time in prayer with the Lord. Pray with her.
I keep sending her links to my church - they put all the services online - but I don't know if she's ever watched one. Catholic is still Christian, though over complicated, I think.
Alika Parsons said:
Tell her to be a protestant just for her to see what happens in her life.
Where is God When Bad Things Happen?
Bad things happen to everyone. Illness. Job loss. Financial ruin. Sometimes, people we love very much die. Sometimes we don't know if they're saved.…
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Matthew 5:22
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Acts 3:14-15
14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Lee Weeks said:
Jesus warned the Pharisees that hatred in the heart made them guilty of murder (Matt 5:22).
Where is God When Bad Things Happen?
Bad things happen to everyone. Illness. Job loss. Financial ruin. Sometimes, people we love very much die. Sometimes we don't know if they're saved.…
Personally, I'm okay right now, Gerard :) Aside from being sick today. Ick.
But I do have a friend (Catholic background) and she feels like her life is one punishment after another and she thought she paid for her mistakes already but bad things still happen. I keep telling her, no, God is a loving Father, He's not abusive, if she's done wrong then all He wants is for her to repent (ask for forgiveness and not do it anymore). Jesus already paid for everything - she doesn't have to live in defeat!
But she doesn't seem to be listening.
Gerard Lee said:
Hi Paula,
These certainly are difficult questions. I do know that before we are saved, God often uses life to show us we need saving. Not just from the temporal misfortunes of life, but the ultimate Salvation Jesus offers. Somehow we expect everything to make perfect sense to us once we accept Jesus. But then I realize, that the world, with all it's horror and hell didn't change when I accepted Jesus, only I did.
Alika, Lee, and Steve are presenting perspectives on this matter, so I will just say that if something has happened that you need prayer for, let us know, okay?
Where is God When Bad Things Happen?
Bad things happen to everyone. Illness. Job loss. Financial ruin. Sometimes, people we love very much die. Sometimes we don't know if they're saved.…
It appears you only read a portion of my post -- the portion you wished to disagree with. The entire point is that both occurred....or do you not think the men who put Jesus up on the cross that day had murder in their hearts? This is how we can know that all things....that's ALL things... work together for good for those who love God and are called according to His purposes (Rom 8:28). Because what is evil from man's vantage point is used for good in God's economy. We see this in one of the most powerful types/foreshadows of Messiah from the Torah in the story of Joseph (Genesis), when in chapter 50, verse 20 -- at the point where Joseph's brothers are repenting for what they did to him all those years ago -- Joseph says to them, "But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive."
Mark 9:31 For He taught His disciples and said to them, "The Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him. And after He is killed, He will rise the third day."
Jesus warned the Pharisees that hatred in the heart made them guilty of murder (Matt 5:22). Were Jesus' executioners guilty of this? Do you think they had not murder in their hearts when they killed Messiah?
Be assured, none of the actions of man could come about but that the Lord Himself allows it. But, to reject the evil half of the equation of the crucifixion and only see what God did is to miss a very big point...a very fundamental point to our faith, Alika.
In fact, I just re-read your first post on this thread; you seem to understand it perfectly when you wrote, "Our Creator sets up the choices then allows us to chose to do or not to do, but His will be done, and He too will choose to do what He wants to do."
This is exactly right, Alika. We make our choices with our hearts' motives, yet God is always choosing, too, according to His unchanging righteousness. Somehow, He weaves the one into the other, while one does not negate the other.
The cross is both a great evil (man's) and a great good (God's). We repent of the great evil (we put Him there) and thank and worship God for the great and awesome good (He freely went to the cross -- gave Himself for us)...for the very evil that put Him there.
****** (added below)
Your continuing to argue with Steve shows you are not understanding (or something else); the verses you post that CORRECTLY show that the cross was God's idea -- His plan from the foundation -- in no way changes what happened from the human end of things, namely, that man killed/crucified/murdered Jesus, the Son of God. Allllll the verses you may post that say God did it are, of course, true. But they do not negatethe ones that say man killed Him.
Both are true, Alika.
And as the "tree" of both good and evil (Jesus on that cross), in victory He becomes the Tree of Life in resurrection -- that whosoever should believe on Him shall be saved.
Please don't argue for the fun of it, Alika (if you are). That can cause confusion to others if we do that.
Thanks and God bless.
Lee
Alika Parsons said:
It's not that humans murdered Christ; He gave of Himself, He sacrificed Himself, He drank from the cup of God's wrath in taking all the sins of the world upon Himself. If it was our heavenly Father's will our Messiah could have transfigured off the cross and with the heavenly hosts smote every last one of us, in the blink of an eye. It was not humanly possible to murder Yeshua, He did it on his own free will & volition, in accordance to fulfilling everything. Christ did it for you and me, we had no choice in the matter, Yahweh will do what He will whenever He wants, regardless of man. Praise Him for it, He knows what's best for you, and will not give you anymore than you can handle.
Lee Weeks said:
What is the worst that could have ever happened in all history? I believe it was the murder of Messiah -- sinful man murdering the perfect Son of God.
Where is God When Bad Things Happen?
Bad things happen to everyone. Illness. Job loss. Financial ruin. Sometimes, people we love very much die. Sometimes we don't know if they're saved.…
These certainly are difficult questions. I do know that before we are saved, God often uses life to show us we need saving. Not just from the temporal misfortunes of life, but the ultimate Salvation Jesus offers. Somehow we expect everything to make perfect sense to us once we accept Jesus. But then I realize, that the world, with all it's horror and hell didn't change when I accepted Jesus, only I did.
Alika, Lee, and Steve are presenting perspectives on this matter, so I will just say that if something has happened that you need prayer for, let us know, okay?
The execution of a person by nailing or binding them to a cross.
The killing of Jesus Christ in such a way.
Definition: The word crucifixion comes from the Latin "crucifixio," or "crucifixus," meaning "fixed to a cross."
Roman crucifixion was an ancient method of execution in which the victim's hands and feet were bound and nailed to a cross. It was one of the most painful and disgraceful methods of capitol punishment.Victims were usually beaten and tortured and then forced to carry their own cross to the crucifixion site. The Roman cross was formed of wood, typically with a vertical stake and a horizontal cross beam near the top.. Wooden planks were usually fastened to the vertical stake as a footrest or seat, allowing the victim to rest his weight and lift himself for a breath, thus prolonging suffering and delaying death for up to three days. Unsupported, the victim would hang entirely from nail-pierced wrists, severely restricting breathing and circulation. This excruciating ordeal would lead to exhaustion, suffocation, brain death and heart failure. At times, mercy was shown by breaking the victim's legs, causing death to come quickly.
John 19:10-11
10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
Steve Crespo said:
"And when THEY had crucified Him, they divided up His garments among themselves by casting lots." -Mt. 27:35
Matthew 27:35-50
35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.36 And sitting down they watched him there;37 And set up over his head his accusation written, This Is Jesus The King Of The Jews.38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Where is God When Bad Things Happen?
Bad things happen to everyone. Illness. Job loss. Financial ruin. Sometimes, people we love very much die. Sometimes we don't know if they're saved.…
Replies
There is a book on the subject that I would highly recommend. It is titled "If God is Good: Faith in the Midst of Suffering and Evil." by Randy Alcorn. It is published by Multnomah Books. Lots of Scriptures and excellent insight into the subject.
I suppose it is human nature to blame or point the finger at God when bad things happen in our lives. ...More so than when good things happen, anyway.
But listen, we are promised troubles in this world (John 16:33)- God never promised us a road free of bumps and potholes- but He has promised us that HE has overcome the world, and in that we are to take courage.
Sometimes a bad decision can have a life long consequence. That's not God's abuse. That's life, and what we (mankind) made of it.
Life is simply not fair. No one ever said it would be. Some go through life seemingly without trials or worries, some are just the opposite. We'll never know why this side of the grave.
But, the grace of God lies in the fact that He saves our souls in spite of ourselves, He carries our burdens, He gives us strength to overcome, and He sends His people into our lives.
Your friend is a Catholic- and one shouldn't expect her to change her faith as quickly and easily as she would change her socks- but Catholic or not, she can approach the Lord as you or I... or any sinner for that matter, through the Son. Encourage her to do so. (No man is condemned because they are Catholic, or Episcopalian, of Greek Orthodox, or any denomination/sect... but the man, any man, who rejects Jesus as his Lord and Savior, he is the one who stands condemned.)
And even if her theology is off, pray that the Lord will us these trials to show her the Truth.
Encourage her to spend time in the Word, and in time in prayer with the Lord. Pray with her.
Peace to you, Paula.
Feel better.
Morelike Priestian than Christ-like..
I keep sending her links to my church - they put all the services online - but I don't know if she's ever watched one. Catholic is still Christian, though over complicated, I think.
Alika Parsons said:
1 John 3:15
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Matthew 5:22
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Acts 3:14-15
14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Lee Weeks said:
Tell her to be a protestant just for her to see what happens in her life.
But I do have a friend (Catholic background) and she feels like her life is one punishment after another and she thought she paid for her mistakes already but bad things still happen. I keep telling her, no, God is a loving Father, He's not abusive, if she's done wrong then all He wants is for her to repent (ask for forgiveness and not do it anymore). Jesus already paid for everything - she doesn't have to live in defeat!
But she doesn't seem to be listening.
Gerard Lee said:
Alika,
It appears you only read a portion of my post -- the portion you wished to disagree with. The entire point is that both occurred....or do you not think the men who put Jesus up on the cross that day had murder in their hearts? This is how we can know that all things....that's ALL things... work together for good for those who love God and are called according to His purposes (Rom 8:28). Because what is evil from man's vantage point is used for good in God's economy. We see this in one of the most powerful types/foreshadows of Messiah from the Torah in the story of Joseph (Genesis), when in chapter 50, verse 20 -- at the point where Joseph's brothers are repenting for what they did to him all those years ago -- Joseph says to them, "But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive."
Mark 9:31 For He taught His disciples and said to them, "The Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him. And after He is killed, He will rise the third day."
Jesus warned the Pharisees that hatred in the heart made them guilty of murder (Matt 5:22). Were Jesus' executioners guilty of this? Do you think they had not murder in their hearts when they killed Messiah?
Be assured, none of the actions of man could come about but that the Lord Himself allows it. But, to reject the evil half of the equation of the crucifixion and only see what God did is to miss a very big point...a very fundamental point to our faith, Alika.
In fact, I just re-read your first post on this thread; you seem to understand it perfectly when you wrote, "Our Creator sets up the choices then allows us to chose to do or not to do, but His will be done, and He too will choose to do what He wants to do."
This is exactly right, Alika. We make our choices with our hearts' motives, yet God is always choosing, too, according to His unchanging righteousness. Somehow, He weaves the one into the other, while one does not negate the other.
The cross is both a great evil (man's) and a great good (God's). We repent of the great evil (we put Him there) and thank and worship God for the great and awesome good (He freely went to the cross -- gave Himself for us)...for the very evil that put Him there.
****** (added below)
Your continuing to argue with Steve shows you are not understanding (or something else); the verses you post that CORRECTLY show that the cross was God's idea -- His plan from the foundation -- in no way changes what happened from the human end of things, namely, that man killed/crucified/murdered Jesus, the Son of God. Allllll the verses you may post that say God did it are, of course, true. But they do not negatethe ones that say man killed Him.
Both are true, Alika.
And as the "tree" of both good and evil (Jesus on that cross), in victory He becomes the Tree of Life in resurrection -- that whosoever should believe on Him shall be saved.
Please don't argue for the fun of it, Alika (if you are). That can cause confusion to others if we do that.
Thanks and God bless.
Lee
Alika Parsons said:
Hi Paula,
These certainly are difficult questions. I do know that before we are saved, God often uses life to show us we need saving. Not just from the temporal misfortunes of life, but the ultimate Salvation Jesus offers. Somehow we expect everything to make perfect sense to us once we accept Jesus. But then I realize, that the world, with all it's horror and hell didn't change when I accepted Jesus, only I did.
Alika, Lee, and Steve are presenting perspectives on this matter, so I will just say that if something has happened that you need prayer for, let us know, okay?
cru·ci·fix·ion/ˌkro͞osəˈfikSHən/ Noun:
Definition: The word crucifixion comes from the Latin "crucifixio," or "crucifixus," meaning "fixed to a cross."
Roman crucifixion was an ancient method of execution in which the victim's hands and feet were bound and nailed to a cross. It was one of the most painful and disgraceful methods of capitol punishment.Victims were usually beaten and tortured and then forced to carry their own cross to the crucifixion site. The Roman cross was formed of wood, typically with a vertical stake and a horizontal cross beam near the top.. Wooden planks were usually fastened to the vertical stake as a footrest or seat, allowing the victim to rest his weight and lift himself for a breath, thus prolonging suffering and delaying death for up to three days. Unsupported, the victim would hang entirely from nail-pierced wrists, severely restricting breathing and circulation. This excruciating ordeal would lead to exhaustion, suffocation, brain death and heart failure. At times, mercy was shown by breaking the victim's legs, causing death to come quickly.
John 19:10-11
10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
Steve Crespo said:
Matthew 27:35-50
35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.36 And sitting down they watched him there;37 And set up over his head his accusation written, This Is Jesus The King Of The Jews.38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
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