Hi guys, i'm a Malaysian Christian, i reasonly heard a disturbing news in my country, a pastor go through a trans sexual surgery to change his sex to a woman and married another chrisitan man.
This transexual pastor now quit his full time job as pastor and open a direct sell company and bring thousands of people work under him to Christ.
My question is: Can we conclude this pastor as a homosexual? If so why God use him? If God agree with this pastor's act, should'nt God need to appologise for Sodom & Gamorath? If God cannot contredict himself, is this the act af devil, trying to confuse Christian?
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And one more thing just so you know where my heart is when it comes to someone who is gay or falls in that genre. They have as much a right to come to church like everyone else. I won't say anything about them being gay or anything. They will get treated just the same as anyone else. If a person starts criticizing them or making fun of them or saying something that will cause them to want to leave and not come back. I will defend them and quickly correct the one who was mocking that homosexual. Because no one is perfect. I know Jesus would do the same. And to tell you the truth there was a close friend of mine who did that, and when I defended the gay person. My friend who was mocking agreed that I was right, and that they shouldn't do that whole mocking thing. So trust me when I say I don't have a gay bashing agenda in my plans. But if a gay person or a person who has had a sex change operation were to come up to me and ask me what I believe then I'm going to tell them in love what the bible says about it, and that it needs to be repented of, and that it's up to them whether or not they are going to do that. Just like any other sin.
Why even preach the gospel if we can't even tell people what sin is. It's not judging if you are being honest when witnessing and telling people according to the bible what sin is. It's a thin line. But it is still not judging. I'll be the first to say I'm a sinner. Like I said earlier every christian battles with some sort of sexual temptation..Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." That's the first Script I memorized in my relationship with God. John the baptist told people about themselves but at the same time he said he himself isn't worthy to tie the sandals of the Lord. He isn't worthy to baptise the Lord.
Dude don't get it twisted, I'm not judging, I'm simply speaking the truth. Truth isn't always gonna be pleasant, but just because it's not pleasant don't mean it's not right. Jesus had a few sides to him, the one who was loving and who was gentle and kind, and the one who also said I came to bring a sword not peace. There is a time for peace and a time for war. There is a time for a Paul whose loving and kind and gentle, and then there is a time for a John the Baptist. I prefer the loving and kind approach. Trust me doggie, I've learned to accept people for who they are loving them even though I don't agree with their philosophy or their practices, so if God loves me despite my flaws, then I will do the same for others. But I will admit my sins, know that they are sins, and be honest with my self, God, and others.
Buzz I respect you a lot, because a lot of the things you say are pretty cool, and you are heavy into the scriptures, and I think you and I have a lot in common when it comes to our views. But I think you are wrong when it comes to this. I think you are sincere, but sincerly wrong. It's not personal. But one of us is right, and that means one of us is wrong. Truth is, we can each use the scriptures to support what ever it is we believe, but according to the topic there is only one truth. When Satan and Jesus went at it in the dessert, they battled with the scriptures, and at the end of the day it came down to what scripture was the appropriate response to the circumstance. I'm going to ask you straight up because I want to know what you really believe... is homosexuality a sin yes or no. Is a man changing and becoming a woman wrong in God's eyes yes or no. You already know what I believe.
A few things:
Sandlin (whoever the Hell that is...) mentions that Greek scholarship has it that arsenokoites could be translated as male prostitute, a customer of a male prostitute, or a boy prostitute. This is interesting of him to say considering the word never appears as such outside of the New Testament. It is also interesting because the word is never translated as such outside the advent of LGBT and ally groups. What actual Biblical scholarship shows is that the Septuagint's rendering of anti-gay man sex Levitical passages includes the root of arsen and koites in direct succession with one another. Paul, knowing the Septuagint, would naturally use two words 'men' and 'bed'/'lying' together, to feed back to the Levitical prohibition.
But Sven, is there any reasoning to suppose that the Greek for 'men' and 'bed' in succession should refer back to this Levitical prohibition? Why yes, in virtue of the fact that rabbis used a Hebrew term "mishkav zakur," taken from the same Levitical passages to refer to gay man sex, which Paul clearly directly translated from to coin "arsenkoites". Mishkav zakur is used, for instance, by Josephus: "The law recognizes no sexual connections, except the natural union of man and wife…Sodomy [mishkav zakur] it abhors, and punishes any guilt of such assault with death." Thus, arsenkoites is both a compound word constructed from the Septuagint Levitical gay man sex prohibitions, AND a Greek compound word following a Hebrew compounded word in rabbinical literature based off from the exact same verses. Additionally, when arsenkoites was translated into Latin, Syriac, and Coptic languages (since they were around), we find that the mss translates the word literally into "men who have sex with other men." That is, at least according to "Homosexuals or Prostitutes?" by David Wright, which I cannot find a single rebuttal for, at least as it relates to the Syriac and Latin and Coptic rendering the word literally. The Bible is against gay man sex.
Just so I understand you correctly, when Jesus said He came to fulfill the law and not abolish it, you think He meant that He came to fulfill the law, and did, which effectively abolished it? Why on Earth would He tell people He came not to abolish the Law if fulfilling the Law means we need not follow it? Anyway, one can easily argue against what you are saying by reading what is said immediately after He says this:
"For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." (Matthew 5:18)
Nothing from all of the law will pass until heaven and earth fade to silence. Why is it being assumed that "all is accomplished" refers to the work on the cross and not its effects throughout space time? Christ also said immediately afterward that those who teach others not to follow the Law will be least in the kingdom and that those who teach and follow the Law will be considered greatest - would you have it that this only applied to a handful of people who lived in the three years or so between Christ saying this and Christ dying on the cross? Is following the Law only important to them? And if we are not required to follow the Law, why does Christ talk about fulfilling the Law and then proceed to exemplify and educate his listeners on the true meaning of various aspects of the Law later in the Sermon of the Mount (You have heard it said not to hate, murder, etc., but I say...)?
How can that be? God is unchanging, yet here He is changing one of His laws. Jesus said not one iota or tittle would pass away until all was fulfilled, yet quite clearly God is sweeping away the old kosher & purity laws.
We follow them in spirit. We do not sacrifice a lamb for atonement, because we sacrificed the Lamb. We do not have a building to be our temple, for our body is now our temple. We do not share a physical kingdom like the Jews, but we have a spiritual one. We do not need to follow laws regarding cleanliness because we are made clean. Men didn't need to circumcise their winkies anymore, but their hearts. The principle's of God's character that the Old Testament laws reflected have not changed, but the ways in which we are to act in accordance with His character has changed. God thought gay man sex was abominable and gross and worthy of inducing vomit - His thoughts on the matter do not change. Kosher laws, on the other hand, were instituted to make Israel unique from other nations (Deuteronomy 14) and as an indication of Israel's holiness (Leviticus 11). The ritual diet is a type, or a shadow (Colossians 2:16-17, Hebrews 11:3, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typology_%28theology%29), of the New Testament world and Christ, for kosher law physically indicated holiness, separation, and defilement, where Christ came to teach true holiness and separation and true defilement (Mark 7:144ff). God hitting home that Paul should eat non-kosher food, which here represents the Gentile world, is really His asserting the fact that Israel only represented His true people, and the Gentile world only represented worldliness (in fact, His children extend to every race, and many Jews are not adopted by Him), and non-kosher food only represented defilement. God expects His holy people to be unique and separated from the World - and that has not changed. This is exactly why they did not mix fibers, or mix animals, or mix seed in the field because these things illustrated holiness, insomuch that they illustrated separation of one thing from another.
Good one Sven. Plus, paul writes about it too. So it doesn't matter if it's old test or not. It's new test also. God created male and female and that's how He wants them to stay. In the new test. 1 Cor: 6:9.... "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not decieved: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind"
The word effeminate means: having feminine qualities untypical of a man, not manly in appearance or manner:
Now here is another scripture that says in Duet. 23:1 "No man who is emasculated or have his male organ cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord."
Now in Isaiah 56:3 God addresses and talks about the salvation of the transexual who had his organ cut off through the prophet Isaiah. "Foreigners who have joined the LORD should not say, "The Lord will not accept me with his people." The eunuch should not say, because I cannot have children the Lord will not accept me, For thus says the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, """that will not be ....cut off."""
Eunuchs were people who had their male organ cut off, and so God addresses them and says that they too will have a place in the assembly of the Lord if they repent, and come to God and honor his laws. Even though they cut off their organ, God will not cut them off if they change.
Now in dealing with the Law that is not called the suggestions but the LAW and the ideal of changing a person's sex.
This is what Paul writes to Timothy in 1 Tim 1:8-11 about the law. "But we know that the law is good if someone uses it lawfully. We also know that the law is not made for good peole but for those who are against the law and for those who refuse to follow it. It is for people who are against God and are sinful, who are not holy and have no religion, who kill their fathers and mothers, who murder, who take part in sexual sins, who have sexual relations with people of the same sex, who sell slaves, who tell lies,.... etc. who do anything against the true teaching of God. That teaching is part of the Good News of the blessed God that he gave me to tell."
If a person gets saved certainly you don't think that Jesus Christ is going to sanctify a homosexual's lifestyle. The law is not only the Ten Commandments, it's the totality the embodiment of the entire Old Test. That Jesus came to fulfill not do away with, Jesus says "Don't think I came to do away with the law or "The Teachings of the Prophets", but to fulfill it. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away not even the smallest letter or the smallest part of the letter will be lost until everything has happened. Whoever refuses to obey any command and teaches other people not to obey that command will be the least important in the kingdom of heaven....etc."
Teaching of the Prophets AND The Law...
One of the supreme tradgedies of our time, is the declassification of homosexuality as a sin. When you declassify it as a sin you cut them off from their salvation source. It is a damning declassification. To accept this sin, and to free up homosexuals from the responsibility to live any way they want is a damning thing. It's as insatiable lust which they are trying to justify to every one else. Homosexuality is a perverted view of sex.
Despite popular view, christians are the gatekeepers to the church and we are to give this message in and out of season. We can't with hold this life saving truth. We are commanded to love every person the same and to not judge anyone, but we should tell the truth in love no matter what or who they are. Love isn't always telling people what they want to hear. It's telling them what they need to hear despite their reaction, so we won't be held accountable. That's why a ton of christians got murdered, because they refused to water down the truth. Or give in with foolish reasonings because of the times. We are in this world but we are not of this world, and homosexuality and everything that goes along with it is of this world. PERIOD.
A minor point: that is not exactly what the Bible says. The Bible does not say Moses interpreted God's words and that that interpretation manifested itself into laws about pork and polyester. The Bible prefaces each section about Levitical code, or kosher law, or sexual deviancies with "The Lord spoke to Moses," telling Moses to speak about such things explicitly. It is the same preface given when Noah is given precise and intricate instructions about the ark, and the same preface that precedes Moses telling Pharaoh exactly what plague will befall Egypt next. To say that God is just sitting back and letting Moses make things up does not follow from the context or from the words explicitly given.
Depends on the Old Testament law. Leviticus 20, for instance, goes over an array of prohibitions like bestiality, homosexuality, menstrual sex, and incest, which aren't extensions of the Ten Commandments (at least, I wouldn't try to argue that they are); nevertheless, these prohibitions envelope individuals outside of Israel. Nations that practiced such things were considered "abominable" by God and were "spewed" out from their land. These actions were considered abominable just as men taking on the drab of women, and vice versa, was considered abominable by Him (Deut 22:5).
I can understand about identity crisis in transgender. I remeber talking to one online in a livestream, which I didn't want to cause eruption since this was a public moment. I was trying to imply and ask why are you trying to go through this. The person replied, "Because I am a (that opposite gender )". For some reason, I can't remeber the reply. I wanted to get answers why, but that person just kept on bring up just because she is that gender. To me, saying that your a boy or girl doesn't make you female.
Just modifying body parts such as your genetials,you skeletal structure still remains to be built as a female or male.
Im pretty much realizing for alot of these arguments on sexual preferences, gender, and abortion. All of these is because they just want to do it. There isn't a solid good reason I found about any of these to do it or not.
Alot of these psycology could be resolve, then trying to change yourself and using your money to do so. There is like your familly or group of friends you can get advice from.
For me, Neither I was born this way or I think I am a male. Like if I think of good things, that doesn't mean I am a good person. Same way, just because I believe Im a male, doesn't mean I am one. But not believing I was born this way, becomes also a battle between God's predestination in humans vs. Free will. For here, then you really have to cut, what is predestination and what is free will.
As the transpastor, he is still actually a male, unless he even changed his skeletal structure (I know from a class in Figure drawing in studying the differences between a male and female skeleton), my two cents is she still a male. I remeber somewhere you have to take testasterone pills after surgery for males I believe.
But, I don't condemn that he is saving people. Thats what is important.
Buzz...
"Nah, I wasn't seriously suggesting that."
...Then in all curiosity, what were you suggesting?
"I hear "the Bible says this" and "the Bible says that" all the time, but far too often what is being quoted is either not in the Bible or if it is, is not being read in a Biblical context but rather filtered through centuries of cultural bias (& I use "bias" here in a non-judgmental sense, meaning merely a presumption of certain beliefs, not whether those beliefs are in & of themselves good or bad)."
...I'm sorry, but you don't think even using the phrase "transgendered person" is not a cultural bias? You say you want to strip biblical interpretation from all modern cultural baggage, but then you go and lay a fresh foundation of cultural baggage in which to make your own interpretations.
Listen, I have no problem with you doing that, but I do have a problem with denying you are doing that... while you do it!
"I think we need to strip away as many personal/familial/cultural/scholarly/liturgical preconceptions/interpretations from the original text as possible & instead look at exactly what was being said/written."
...On the surface this sounds noble, but on closer inspection it implies that all the personal and scholarly interpretations are wrong, doesn't it? Mighty haughty to toss out centuries of scholarly work, and cultural practice with one sweep, deem it wrong, and start from scratch with the expectation that you, or others like you, will get to the truth of the matter here.
I don't mean any disrespect, but that really does seem mighty presumptuous.
Listen, call me simple, but I don't believe the Lord gave us the word, filled it with such nuance and intellectual subtleties that the average shepherd in the field, mechanic in the garage, or me, the lowly illustrator in a cubicle could not understand and apply it.
When the Lord says something is a sin, I take him at his word. When scripture says a man ought not lie with a man as he does with a woman, I keep it simple, and believe it. The scriptures are pretty clear in terms of gender identity- what a man and woman ought do and not do (sexually speaking)- and I believe running this through a pop culture filter of trans-gender talk really obscures what was meant to be very simple.
Because you know, sometimes- just sometimes- the Truth is very, very simple.
Sometimes we don't like it, but then again, the Truth has never been dependent on our opinion of it.
It just is.
Peace, all.
Goodness gracious. Christian basics. Homosexuality nomatter how you look at it or dress it up is still Homosexuality. Deuteronomy 22:5 "A woman must not wear men's clothes, and the man must not wear woman's clothes. The Lord your God hates anyone who does that." Now if God hates anyone who does that how much more will God hate an act of defiling your temple by changing the wisdom of what God decided for you to be, it's like telling God He does'nt know what he is doing and the homo knows best.
Most likely that Pastor who made a sexual change entertained the thoughts so much or gave into his own desires that God turned him over to that. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12(Read this) He always give us a way out, but it's up to us to take it.
The power of free will comes into play when it comes to homo stuff because when it comes to free will every sin imaginable needs to be available to us. Else it truly wouldn't be free will. A man needs to choose what he or she is going to do. Every christian faces sexual temptation, and every sexual temptation is different for every believer. Some christians might battle with homosexuality, others porn, others beastiality, and others lusting after a sister or brother or any kind of close relative. But all these temptations fall under free will. We have a right to choose what we are going to give in to. Satan temps us or tries to get us to reason it out, but at the end of the day God gave us his letter of what he desires for us. Not only that He also gave us a warning of what to look for in these dark times proving that His Word is right in 2 Timothy 3:1-9 "In the last days."
Now Buzz I disagree with what you were saying in the beginning, but I am going to take what you said and put it in the right context. There is one exception to the rule where I believe God gives a person the right to choose what they are going to be. And that's when a person is born and they have both male and female parts between the legs. In that case they can choose what they feel in their heart that they are, that's when it's okay for doctors to use their gift of surgery to help finalize who their patient decided to be.
The problem is we humans try to reason everything out and waste too much brain power on unnecessary stuff. When God laid down the law, it was final, but some of the things God touched on while using Moses to give the law I'm like what?! "God was it really necessary for you to tell us not to sleep with animals?!" And God is like, "You don't want to know-sigh-" It's a shame that God had to put it out there just so people would know not to sleep with the same sex or animals etc... but the way we are, we are too smart for our own good sometimes, and God always keeps it simple for us. Read 1 Timothy 1:8-11. Was it necessary that God dedicated an entire book to the rules and regulations? Yeah it was. Now more than ever.
Wow.
Buzz... if you want to make the case that Jesus referring his body to a temple somehow is part of a theological argument for someone having a sex change operation, well... then I guess that's as far as we can go with this.
I hope that doesn't come off as snarky, or mean spirited, it is not meant to be. I say it with all due respect. But, I think when we have such a massive difference in viewpoint/worldviews, and are dealing with a limited medium like this in which to discuss it, it's best to just call it a day.
So, peace to you, my friend. Until next time.
(Loved the gif, by the way. Good call.)
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