aloha again!i have seen to many christian comics where the girl is way to SEXY.how do we show an attactive women in a comic and not send the wrong message. disney totally FAILS on this with most of their modern princess (pochahontes, ect) has anyone seen it done right before? the only example i could think of is JESSIE from toystory 2she is female, very cute, attactive and NOT sexy. anyone else?le0www.aydellon.com
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I agree that the main issues are ; if we have a main character that we are portraying as 'cool' that might influence other girls then we should portray her 'femininity' in a suitable, perhaps chaste/Christian way. For eg. Liz Lemon from 30 rock seems to be a 'new wave' kind of 'cool' Female character that has won the hearts of women And men and she is feminine- some would say 'sexy?' but is not really presented as 'slutty' in her dress?
One other issue is that visual sexualisation is a legitimate issue that girls would have to personally deal with in this day and age- and it might be legitimate to portray Characters at different stages of development as they come to grips with these issues. In the same way as we portray all kinds of 'sin' in stories- we're not condoning it but we are not hiding from the realities of how the sinful world effects our Characters (and us)- then as an artist I would certainly have limits as to what I would portray- It would be safe to hint at sexuality without being too 'in your face'- you can be subtle to get a point accross without being pornographic. just like if you portray someone getting murdered in a story, you don't have to show blood and guts to get the message accross. sorry if I'm repeating stuff someone has already said-couldn't read it all, some posts are very wordy- good discussion!
Great discussion everyone! I posted earlier but after reading many of the other posts I wanted to post again. As CHRISTIAN Publishers/Creators I believe it is our responsibility to create comics that A.) Bring Glory to God B.) Encourage Believers C.) Evangelize the Lost. Anything that is calling itself "CHRISTIAN" should have at its core at east one or all of these "pillars". You can create works that have Christians in them and it NOT be overtly a "Christian" story, but if you are labeling the entire project as "CHRISTIAN COMIC" than I firmly believe that these three pillars should be prevalent. Whether it's open and in your face like "This Present Darkness" by Frank Peretti or Allegorical like the "Chronicles of Narnia" by CS Lewis or even more subtle like "Lord of the Rings", by J.R.R. Tolkien, these Three Pillars are still prevalent.
Women in a VISUALLY dominated medium like a Christian comic need to be written and rendered in a way that they inspire young Christian female readers and encourage older Christian Female readers. They should ALSO be treated and rendered in such a way that they do not tempt male reader (Christian or otherwise) to lust. This does not mean they cannot be stunningly beautiful. It does NOT mean that they have to wear a Nun's Habit! BUT they should be drawn in a way that AVOIDS the provocative. You CAN easily avoid certain POSES and carefully craft the costume in a way that certain body parts are not overly accentuated.
In relation to this discussion (comic book woman), I find the whole debate on what is "SEXY" in this culture vs. that culture or God's attitude about "nudity" to be grasping at straws and changing the subject. We all know that the VAST MAJORITY of our readership will be AMERICANS or CANADIANS (Modern Westerners). And we also know that the vast majority of we CREATORS are also. I think we all know a sexually charged image when we see one vs. one that is not!
Betty and Veronica in a bikini look VASTLY different than a typical Image Comic's rendering of a similar pair of young Blond and Brunette girls! Archie Comics artists will tone done the breast on purpose. The cleavage (if any at all) will simply be a small line. In an IMAGE comic, the woman will be at a minimum a DD - HH bust with massive cleavage AND USUALLY rendered in such a way that her nipples are protruding exponentially! What man isn't going to be sexually stirred by such an image? The same can be said for other body parts. Add to that the eyes and pouting BIG lips and it's obvious to me. If I hired and Artist and he rendered my female characters like that I would mail them back a very large eraser!
you said:
" God has no problem with nudity. Clothing wasn't part of His original plan for the human race. In fact, He ordered two of His prophets to go naked in order to attract attention to their message. As I've posted elsewhere, there are natives of the Amazon, Africa, and the South Pacific who go au natural yet still live modestly. It's as much a matter of attitude as anything."
I really think the Bible is in disagreement with you here. We know that this world is not what God created it to be. When Adam and Eve sinned, God killed an animal (likely a lamb) and clothed them with it's skin. It like the rest of the old testament is a foreshadowing of Christ covering our sins. This is why we don't go around naked today.
As to the naked prophets you referenced in both cases the message in no way is to be taken as a permission of God for everyone to go Naked. I will post them in context so hopefully you will see:
Isaiah 20: 1-3
1 In the year that the supreme commander, sent by Sargon king of Assyria, came to Ashdod and attacked and captured it- 2 at that time the LORD spoke through Isaiah son of Amoz. He said to him, "Take off the sackcloth from your body and the sandals from your feet." And he did so, going around stripped and barefoot.
3 Then the LORD said, "Just as my servant Isaiah has gone stripped and barefoot for three years, as a sign and portent against Egypt and Cush, [a] 4 so the king of Assyria will lead away stripped and barefoot the Egyptian captives and Cushite exiles, young and old, with buttocks bared—to Egypt's shame. 5 Those who trusted in Cush and boasted in Egypt will be afraid and put to shame. 6 In that day the people who live on this coast will say, 'See what has happened to those we relied on, those we fled to for help and deliverance from the king of Assyria! How then can we escape?' "
1 Samuel 19: 18-24
18 When David had fled and made his escape, he went to Samuel at Ramah and told him all that Saul had done to him. Then he and Samuel went to Naioth and stayed there. 19 Word came to Saul: "David is in Naioth at Ramah"; 20 so he sent men to capture him. But when they saw a group of prophets prophesying, with Samuel standing there as their leader, the Spirit of God came upon Saul's men and they also prophesied. 21 Saul was told about it, and he sent more men, and they prophesied too. Saul sent men a third time, and they also prophesied. 22 Finally, he himself left for Ramah and went to the great cistern at Secu. And he asked, "Where are Samuel and David?"
"Over in Naioth at Ramah," they said.
23 So Saul went to Naioth at Ramah. But the Spirit of God came even upon him, and he walked along prophesying until he came to Naioth. 24 He stripped off his robes and also prophesied in Samuel's presence. He lay that way all that day and night. This is why people say, "Is Saul also among the prophets?"
It looks to me that Isaiah is told to go naked to display the SHAME that god is gong to bring about on Egypt and Cush for their rebellion against Him.
As for 1 sam 19, the Hebrew is unclear if Saul was completely naked or just removed his upper garment. But the indication is that God drove Saul mad to give David the chance to escape.
I think this verse from Revelation makes the issue of nudity (at least public nudity) absolutely clear what God thinks about it:
Revelation 16: 15
"Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."
Now as we who are wicked by nature try to give glory to God with our gifts, it is inevitable that the word of God will rub a rash against our personal desires and intentions. Let us be careful that we are in keeping with His Word as we seek to glorify him.
"Shannon: Bravo re drawing characters as people first, body types/costumes last. It takes little more than a smile and eye contact to make a female character look enticing to readers; she can be dressed like an Amish farm girl and be more genuinely appealing than the average DC/Marvel "heroine"."
Buzz: I think in my huge diatribe that was the essential point I was attempting to make. But it is still peculiar how Betty and Veronica aren't particularly "sensual/erotic/sexualized" even when they are in scantier outfits.
BTW - I followed your Serenity publishing endeavors online - where does that book stand currently? It was one of the few quality Christian comics floating about.
Hey buddy! Outstanding comment! This really shows your desire to promote art that would be glorifying to God and not cause men to stumble. Outstanding observation. I wish I knew of some examples to show you. Maybe someone else out there might be able to suggust some.
Since you asked for a woman's opinion, I'll put in my 2¢ worth.
It doesn't matter much to me how sexy a woman is drawn. I pay more attention to how a woman's character is developed and portrayed in the story. In many mainstream comics it is all too obvious that the woman character is inserted into the story for the sole purpose of pandering to male sexual fantasies. She isn't portrayed as having any personality outside of that. Another common mistake is to portray a woman as only a support for the main, male, characters. She's usually depicted as a "nice" girl who is wholly devoted to her male hero (think Lois Lane). This is just as stereotypical as the sex object. While it is true that God created woman as a helpmate for man, he also created her as a full and unique individual in her own right, with a personality all her own, and concerns that don't always include her significant other, even if he is the love of her life that she is devoted to as a help meet.
If a woman, even if she is written into a supporting role, is developed well enough as a character in her own right with all the individual quirks and oddities that any human being might have, this works for me. Japanese anime excels at this. I have never seen a woman in anime that displays the one-dimensional characteristics that are more common in in American comics.
The solution: Pay attention to developing your woman characters as individuals when you draw them. Whether they have sex appeal or not, this will not come across as crass or inappropriate.
Another consideration: Girls who read comics tend to look up to female characters as role models. If a female character is too unrealistically endowed, this can be demoralizing. So, yeah, it's better to tone it down some.
leo said:
i guess what im wondering, is it possible to show an attactive women and not make her sexy? its an age old church question. there are women at church that feel they have to dress like lara ingalls from little house on the prarie in order to be godly. to say that sexy is a realitve thing might be true but lets just say the typical american guy that reads comics. not from china or africa just the average comic reader. in my comic i want to add a love interest but im not sure how to repersent her. in fact humans do not exist in my comic just because i really dont even want to go there. i know given my nature i will slowly begin to start drawing lara croft type girls. it would be nice to have a women opinion but, something about comics that keeps most of them away! maybe its the sexy stereo types! i just read a christian comic where the superhero guy works with this smoking hot girl and they are discussing the lack of morals in the the general public! too funny! she has huge boobs tight little shirt and stilleto hills! ha ha! i am very curious to read creature tech thanks for the input everyone~ leo www.aydellon.com
Replies
One other issue is that visual sexualisation is a legitimate issue that girls would have to personally deal with in this day and age- and it might be legitimate to portray Characters at different stages of development as they come to grips with these issues. In the same way as we portray all kinds of 'sin' in stories- we're not condoning it but we are not hiding from the realities of how the sinful world effects our Characters (and us)- then as an artist I would certainly have limits as to what I would portray- It would be safe to hint at sexuality without being too 'in your face'- you can be subtle to get a point accross without being pornographic. just like if you portray someone getting murdered in a story, you don't have to show blood and guts to get the message accross. sorry if I'm repeating stuff someone has already said-couldn't read it all, some posts are very wordy- good discussion!
Women in a VISUALLY dominated medium like a Christian comic need to be written and rendered in a way that they inspire young Christian female readers and encourage older Christian Female readers. They should ALSO be treated and rendered in such a way that they do not tempt male reader (Christian or otherwise) to lust. This does not mean they cannot be stunningly beautiful. It does NOT mean that they have to wear a Nun's Habit! BUT they should be drawn in a way that AVOIDS the provocative. You CAN easily avoid certain POSES and carefully craft the costume in a way that certain body parts are not overly accentuated.
In relation to this discussion (comic book woman), I find the whole debate on what is "SEXY" in this culture vs. that culture or God's attitude about "nudity" to be grasping at straws and changing the subject. We all know that the VAST MAJORITY of our readership will be AMERICANS or CANADIANS (Modern Westerners). And we also know that the vast majority of we CREATORS are also. I think we all know a sexually charged image when we see one vs. one that is not!
Betty and Veronica in a bikini look VASTLY different than a typical Image Comic's rendering of a similar pair of young Blond and Brunette girls! Archie Comics artists will tone done the breast on purpose. The cleavage (if any at all) will simply be a small line. In an IMAGE comic, the woman will be at a minimum a DD - HH bust with massive cleavage AND USUALLY rendered in such a way that her nipples are protruding exponentially! What man isn't going to be sexually stirred by such an image? The same can be said for other body parts. Add to that the eyes and pouting BIG lips and it's obvious to me. If I hired and Artist and he rendered my female characters like that I would mail them back a very large eraser!
you said:
" God has no problem with nudity. Clothing wasn't part of His original plan for the human race. In fact, He ordered two of His prophets to go naked in order to attract attention to their message. As I've posted elsewhere, there are natives of the Amazon, Africa, and the South Pacific who go au natural yet still live modestly. It's as much a matter of attitude as anything."
I really think the Bible is in disagreement with you here. We know that this world is not what God created it to be. When Adam and Eve sinned, God killed an animal (likely a lamb) and clothed them with it's skin. It like the rest of the old testament is a foreshadowing of Christ covering our sins. This is why we don't go around naked today.
As to the naked prophets you referenced in both cases the message in no way is to be taken as a permission of God for everyone to go Naked. I will post them in context so hopefully you will see:
Isaiah 20: 1-3
1 In the year that the supreme commander, sent by Sargon king of Assyria, came to Ashdod and attacked and captured it- 2 at that time the LORD spoke through Isaiah son of Amoz. He said to him, "Take off the sackcloth from your body and the sandals from your feet." And he did so, going around stripped and barefoot.
3 Then the LORD said, "Just as my servant Isaiah has gone stripped and barefoot for three years, as a sign and portent against Egypt and Cush, [a] 4 so the king of Assyria will lead away stripped and barefoot the Egyptian captives and Cushite exiles, young and old, with buttocks bared—to Egypt's shame. 5 Those who trusted in Cush and boasted in Egypt will be afraid and put to shame. 6 In that day the people who live on this coast will say, 'See what has happened to those we relied on, those we fled to for help and deliverance from the king of Assyria! How then can we escape?' "
1 Samuel 19: 18-24
18 When David had fled and made his escape, he went to Samuel at Ramah and told him all that Saul had done to him. Then he and Samuel went to Naioth and stayed there. 19 Word came to Saul: "David is in Naioth at Ramah"; 20 so he sent men to capture him. But when they saw a group of prophets prophesying, with Samuel standing there as their leader, the Spirit of God came upon Saul's men and they also prophesied. 21 Saul was told about it, and he sent more men, and they prophesied too. Saul sent men a third time, and they also prophesied. 22 Finally, he himself left for Ramah and went to the great cistern at Secu. And he asked, "Where are Samuel and David?"
"Over in Naioth at Ramah," they said.
23 So Saul went to Naioth at Ramah. But the Spirit of God came even upon him, and he walked along prophesying until he came to Naioth. 24 He stripped off his robes and also prophesied in Samuel's presence. He lay that way all that day and night. This is why people say, "Is Saul also among the prophets?"
It looks to me that Isaiah is told to go naked to display the SHAME that god is gong to bring about on Egypt and Cush for their rebellion against Him.
As for 1 sam 19, the Hebrew is unclear if Saul was completely naked or just removed his upper garment. But the indication is that God drove Saul mad to give David the chance to escape.
I think this verse from Revelation makes the issue of nudity (at least public nudity) absolutely clear what God thinks about it:
Revelation 16: 15
"Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."
Now as we who are wicked by nature try to give glory to God with our gifts, it is inevitable that the word of God will rub a rash against our personal desires and intentions. Let us be careful that we are in keeping with His Word as we seek to glorify him.
Christ's Peace to you and everyone on this site.
Martin Murtonen said:
Buzz: I think in my huge diatribe that was the essential point I was attempting to make. But it is still peculiar how Betty and Veronica aren't particularly "sensual/erotic/sexualized" even when they are in scantier outfits.
BTW - I followed your Serenity publishing endeavors online - where does that book stand currently? It was one of the few quality Christian comics floating about.
Since you asked for a woman's opinion, I'll put in my 2¢ worth.
It doesn't matter much to me how sexy a woman is drawn. I pay more attention to how a woman's character is developed and portrayed in the story. In many mainstream comics it is all too obvious that the woman character is inserted into the story for the sole purpose of pandering to male sexual fantasies. She isn't portrayed as having any personality outside of that. Another common mistake is to portray a woman as only a support for the main, male, characters. She's usually depicted as a "nice" girl who is wholly devoted to her male hero (think Lois Lane). This is just as stereotypical as the sex object. While it is true that God created woman as a helpmate for man, he also created her as a full and unique individual in her own right, with a personality all her own, and concerns that don't always include her significant other, even if he is the love of her life that she is devoted to as a help meet.
If a woman, even if she is written into a supporting role, is developed well enough as a character in her own right with all the individual quirks and oddities that any human being might have, this works for me. Japanese anime excels at this. I have never seen a woman in anime that displays the one-dimensional characteristics that are more common in in American comics.
The solution: Pay attention to developing your woman characters as individuals when you draw them. Whether they have sex appeal or not, this will not come across as crass or inappropriate.
Another consideration: Girls who read comics tend to look up to female characters as role models. If a female character is too unrealistically endowed, this can be demoralizing. So, yeah, it's better to tone it down some.
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