I just came back from seeing Dinesh D'Souza's "Obama's America 2016".
Wow.
I really cannot recommend it enough. It is a thoughtful investigation on who Obama is ideologically, and seeks to uncover what he believes, and why he believes it.
No ad hominems, no hysteria, but a thorough look at his formative years, his parentage and family influences, and his political and theological mentors.
Man... whether you are for or against him you ought to see this film for the simple reason that- as the subtitle suggests- you really DON'T know him. (Because quite honestly, we were never allowed to know him.)
An amazingly important film.
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@Moses actually he talks some game, but it's the same deception as Oprah's theology, he doesn't acknowledge the Godhead of Christ. On the link you posted there was a related video that might help, explaining what i'm sayin.
@Alika Actually Obama spelled out his faith in Christ as his personal savior quite clearly. http://youtu.be/DmxVlHwLplE Now whether he is following Christ's teachings in politics (I don't know what he does in his personal life) is up for debate. I think we all certainly fall short and have things on our life "resume's" that may cause others to doubt our WALK. (And as a side note: where did the idea come from that Obama is not Christian ...besides his support of gay marriage and abortion of course!). I know a lot of folks heard his name and just assumed he was Muslim. But that's and ignorant rumor. Is there any other evidence outside of those two (extremely important) moral issues? I will say this though about his former church Trinity in Chicago. I actually visited this church when I first got there for college (and was looking for a church home in a new city) a couple of times. Never did I hear anything that was contrary to the Bible or anything out of order. Now years later I heard from other members of the church I attended on a regular basis that Trinity was very open to gay members. I never heard it myself and so I don't know how true it was. This could have helped to form his belief on gay marriage though will will say i NEVER heard anything about it first hand. Also his former pastor was killed in the media for saying that 9-11 could have been God's judgement on America for all of it's abortions. I heard the exact same thing from pastors of all colors and sects of Christianity. I don't think that statement is anti-american, i think it's holding ourselves accountable to a Biblical standard as far as saying that abortion is wrong. I'm not saying 9-11 was God's judgement at all, but I think that if we were to be held accountable for all of the abortions our country is responsible for it would be understandable. I will say, that after his former pastor retired and began garnering all of this election time attention, he seemed to just be saying things out of spite and going crazy. I don't know if he was trying to just sell books or he was looking to get Obama back for distancing himself but he began saying some wild stuff (stuff as far I as i know he never said while pastoring the church).
@Steve,
I think the problem is the two main candidates aren't really viable. Neither one really seems to hold the values of the Bible in their political practice. We've seen both support abortion in deed and word, and also support benefits for "partners". Now Obama has taken it one step further and says he supports gay marriage. Even the health care plan Romney passed/planned and the one Obama is trying to put forth aren't very different in the parts that really matter (government imposed penalties for not buying in). Folks say obama is friendly with socialists, and we know that Romney's friendly with racists and his very religion was formulated on racist ideas. Granted, Romney may have (as he just said today) said that he will keep God in his platform, but which god is he talking about. If it's his Mormon god then he's talking about a physical god who procreated with is wife to give birth to satan, Jesus and the rest of us, his (in their view) "spirit children". The bottom line is, they may seem as different as night and day with their words, but as far as political action they are barely discernible. I don't disagree that a vote for Paul (he's certainly not the ideal Christian candidate either) would not gain him the victory, but I'm just trying to figure out what we would really be winning if Romney or Obama won? I don't pretend to have the answer because I don't. I just don't think this choice is as clear cut as it's made out to be. I may end up voting for one of the "big two". But right now I'm not leaning that way. I will say that @Alika's video on the Electoral College was very interesting in deed though.
I thank you all for your open and honest dialog. Hopefully as the election draws near the Holy Spirit will lead me into a concrete decision as to who to cast my ballot for.
"whoa bruh, you better go read Matthew 9:1-8,Mark 2:1-12,Luke 5:17-26 and repent."
There goes that lack of grace again, Alika.
I believe if you softened your tone you might have more positive results.
As Joseph II said in the film Amadeus: "You are passionate, Mozart, but you do not persuade."
@Ralph, whoa bruh, you better go read Matthew 9:1-8,Mark 2:1-12,Luke 5:17-26 and repent. You're denying the power of Christ in your reply. Also the fact that Mary was filled w/ the HolySpirit(Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:18) and that both Mary and Joseph obeyed Yahweh and did what He told them to do, which proves they're believers. Otherwise Yeshua's name woulda been Joe Jr. or somethin.
But, again we're not talking about authority already there, I'm talking about Christians giving sinners authority to rule over them, something we can't do.
@Moses thanks for your words man and your research is much appreciated. But, President Obama, the one i'm summizing as the one you're saying is a Christian, he's never professed Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. That is to say: Yeshua HaMashiac(JesusChrist) is Yahweh(God) come in the form of man, died on the cross for our sins/salvation, and on the third-day rose alive again to reign forever. (And if you remember BushGW couldn't even say that, beguiling, "Jesus was a prophet.") The only thing i can recollect President Obama ever saying is something to the affect of, "I relate to the christian faith", or "rely on my faith," whatever that means. But never, "JesusChrist is Lord of all." and you won't, because he can't.
In regards to the people he colluded w/ in the past, is something different, compared to people you happen to live by or with. Like what's the saying, "Friends are the family you choose to, not the family you're born to" or something like that, whatev. And keep in mind those people in President Obama's past were the first ones chosen to be his advisers in the whitehouse and the one's making frequent trips.
Moses,
Ultimately, this is what it comes down to.
We have two viable choices. Yes, you can vote for Ron Paul, but that would be the same for voting for Bugs Bunny. Why? Because he won't win, and when you come down to it that would be the same as tossing your vote away.
So, we have two viable, possible choices.
The question I ask myself is "who is closer to my values?" I don't ask who is closer to my religion, because that eliminates both, and because the choice is a secular one. Not a theological one.
As for mormonism, yes, it is heretical to our faith. But We share a great many common values. Just as we share common values with observant Jews, and others.
Values. Things that matter. Our views on marriage, on commerce, on wealth, on government, on life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness... the stuff this country was built on.
I don't believe Obama is a Christian. I don't. I don't know what he is, to be honest, outside of a narcissist. But whatever he is his values in no way line up with mine.
So, who's VALUES are closer to yours? You can make your choice and vote for that man. It may not be the ideal, but is it a lighter shade of gray than the other choice?
Or, you can not vote at all, but then be content to accept whatever happens after that with no grumbling.
You have the right to grumble only if you participate.
Peace to you, sir.
...And yes, it was a good discussion, but let me just say as I said in the beginning, if you haven't seen "2016" go see it!
Good stuff!
Hi guys,
Just want to say that this is a great discussion. One that I was having with my friend Ralph Miley recently. As a Christian man, I find this to be an extremely difficult choice. We have on one hand a Christian, who seems to go along with laws/morals that are anti Christian....and on the other hand a Mormon who has been strong in his faith since a time when African Americans weren't allowed to participate in the rites and who's faith claims that dark skin is a curse and that Christianity as we know it is a false religion ( http://carm.org/mormon-beliefs. ) It's not as easy as "well, Obama is for abortion and gay marriage and Romney is not". When Obama was running in the last election, he was for traditional marriage but also for benefits for partners. This was the exact same belief that Romney professed. As far as abortion we think Romney is against it and Obama is for it and that's that. But while Romney was Governor of Massachusetts his health care program provided free abortions to women and also taxed those who didn't acquire insurance even though they could afford it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_health_care_reform. Sounds a lot like Obama-care. Not only that, but while running he said he would fight for women to maintain their right to choose as seen in this video http://youtu.be/P_w9pquznG4 . If we as Christians judge Obama based upon his actions in political office rather than his word that he is a Christian, shouldn't we judge Romney based upon is actions in political office rather than his word that he is against abortion or will uphold the beliefs of the Bible? Now we know in the time since (this election primarily) both Romney and Obama claim to have supposedly changed their stance (Romney on abortion and Obama in support of gay marriage). As far as a film that claims to show the "real" Obama based upon what it purports his belief's to be, based upon those he was surrounded by or the environment he grew up in, I grew up in poor neighborhoods filled with violence and drugs. Close family members were drug addicts and gang bangers. Many died because of this. But most of the other ones completely changed and follow the Lord now. If someone looked at the early period of my life, they would probably swear that I would write in my vote for the head of my neighborhood's gang or the most successful drug dealer on the block. It sounds ridiculous and that's my point. America is great because it allows us to overcome our environments. The grace of Christ allows us to "sit down with sinners" and still maintain our faith in a might God. It may seem like I'm defending Obama and harping on Mitt Romney but I'm not. I'm just trying to provide a balance to the truth we have seen shared on one candidate compared to the other. I have been praying on who to vote for and I must say that the more that I know about the Mormon religion the more difficult (impossible?) it would be to vote for Mitt Romney. I can say the exact same thing about Obama and his stances on both traditional marriage and abortion (especially after becoming a father recently). I know that Steve said to vote for anyone other than these to is basically a pointless, meaningless exercise that won't move the country forward... but that's where I'm leaning towards right now (haven't decided yet who I will vote for, Ron Paul maybe? Yikes! But I will vote). As I continue to pray on this issue, I pray that God reveals to each of us the best action for us to take. I would also just pray that we speak with each other in a more loving fashion. I know that we disagree on issues, but we should just try to share in a more loving tone with each other, even when we disagree. I would also ask that we pray for our current president to be influenced by the Holy Spirit and that regardless of who wins this election, that "all things work together for the good of those that love the Lord and are called unto his purpose". God bless.
However, when we are talking about a Holy God and Jesus who knew no sin, and His blood had not been shed at the time for forgiveness of sin other than the rituals of under Old Testament Law. It's one thing for us to be under authority to someone who may or may not be a Christian. But for God to place Himself under authority is to place Himself under someone, by nature is sinful, though a follower of Him. Jesus came under the authority of His earthly parents and was obedient to them. God chose Mary and Joseph to be those earthly parents for Jesus to obey. Jesus also placed Himself under the authority of the Ceasar, to submit Himself to Roman Law. He said render under Ceasar the things that are Ceasar, meaning submit yourself to his authority. In many countries, people can't choose their leaders, in this country we can. He is the One who set it up. When my liberal Christian brothers and sister put a man in office who believes in more government, it is the will of God. They are not under God's judgment because how can God hold you to something He those spell out in Scripture. But if that man or woman, tells the church not to proclaim Christ, then we choose God. His purpose is being fulfilled.
If God is the one Who puts people in authority, then it is God's will that we be under authority of sinful leaders who don't know God. In this culture that He allowed to be established, voting is central in the election of leaders. God is very clear about what is sin and the election of sinful leaders is not one of them. The only authority that is above their authority is God's. Again, we have the example of Daniel, who was under the authority of Godless leaders, but when their laws came in contradiction of God's law, he followed God. We can choose to place ouselves under sinful leaders, but when their laws violate His law, then we choose God. And again we go round and round.
@Ralph what are you talking about? Both Mary and Joseph believed in Jesus. They were both Christians.
Please show me the scriptures where "God himself chose to come under the authority of sinners." Thou mind you this is not what we're talking about, this is digressing away from willfully voting for a sinner to have authority over you, your friends, and the church/nation for that matter. But those scriptures would be interesting.
When I look at Scriptures, we find God putting His people in places where they are submitting themselves to the authority of sinners. God placed them in those situations. The ultimate act of placing oneself under the authority of sinners is when Christ placed Himself under the authority of His earthly parents, for all have sinned and fall short of His glory. Jesus elected to place Himself under the rule of sinners. And though Joseph and Mary were Godly parents, they were still sinners. And we know this was all part of His ultimate plan that would lead to our salvation.
As Lee stated, Israel placed themselves under the authority of Saul. And God used Saul as long as he was obedient to listen to Him. Once he started to rebel, he was no longer blessed by God. There were times David had opportunities to take his place as king, but because of his respect for God's anointed, he never usurped Saul's authority. We have Scripture after Scripture where God's people and even God Himself chose to come under the authority of sinners.
We'll probably go round and round on this topic, but dialogue is a good thing, even if it means getting another point of view. During lunch break I would discuss the differences between Catholics and Protestants with a school counselor and we did this for months. He was serious about his faith. Did we sway each from our position? Didn't happen, but I learned so much about the Catholic Church, that is strengthen my resolve, and we remained good friends. I don't think we will sway each other from our positions, but it has strengthened my resolve, I've learned another point of view, and I pray we can still remain friends.
@Lee how do you figure, "He blessed it"? I'm pretty sure Israel got a handing to, for rejecting Yahweh's anointed, and is still going through it.
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