Looking for feedback/critique

Steve Shipley August 19, 2010 at 3:27pm

What you say only proves my point. They went on to become successful despite being told by "experts" that they should quit. The so called "pros" were wrong about Elvis, the Beatles, Bill Gates, Beethovan and a host of other very talented, ingenius individuals.
What is it that you try to defend telling a person he will never succeed in a given field? Wouldn't you rather spur a person on to success. If at first you don't succeed, try, try, again. Instead, it seems to be you're happy to be the bearer of bad news. Like Job's wife who said, "Curse God and die". I simply do not understand how this fits into the Christian way of doing things?
Help me with this. Is it arrogance? Are you in a club that only allows for a certain type of person to enter?
Maybe you should ask your Pastor about this? show him all these replies....see what he says.

Buzz Dixon said:

And with all due respect, Steve, every single one of 'em went on to improve their craft.

I have no doubt as to the assessment of Elvis musical ability. Considering what was pop music at the time, he was clearly out of place. Some people did realize he had something that could be exploited in the trashy field of rock'n'roll & packaged him successfully. He had talent, ability, and was in the right place at the right time when the lightening struck.

The lightning didn't strike a host of others w/better guitar playing ability & better voices.

Malcolm Gladwell in his book OUTLIERS writes of the 10,000 Hour Rule: In order to be good at anything you need to spend 10,000 hours practicing it.

Ray Bradbury said you have to write a million bad words before you write your first good one.

And Josh Logan, the Broadway director of SOUTH PACIFIC et al once said: "If anything can dissuade you from a career in show business -- let it!" By that he meant if you don't have the heart to stick it out and take your lumps, get out of the business before it breaks your heart and/or your b*lls.

Steve Shipley August 19, 2010 at 10:26am

Elvis was told by his high school music teacher that he had no aptitude for music. He never recieved any formal music training and never learned to read music. In 1953, he tried out to be a singer for a quartet, The Songfellows and they turned him down. They told him he couldn't sing. Later, he auditioned for a professional band, but the leader, Eddie Bond, told him he should stick to truck driving, because he was never going to make it as a singer.
Of course, he became known as the king of rock and roll.

William Goulding took his novel, "Lord Of The Flies" to a publisher who declard it, "an absurd and uninteresting fantasy which was rubbish and dull" Finally published, in 1954, it has sold over 15 million copies.

Van Gogh sold only one painting in his lifetime and was told by friends that he should give up painting.

In his early years, Walt Disney was fired by a newspaper because, "he lacked imagination and creativity."

In an early audition, Sidney Poitier was told, "Why don't you stop wasting people's time and go out and be a dishwasher or someting!"

Zane Grey spent most of his life with rejection letters with one publisher telling him that he had no business being a writer and he should give up. He didn't sell his first book until he was 40.

There are countless more of these accounts.
No matter how smart you think you are, no matter how much experience you have, you are not God! You do not know if a man ( or woman ) may succeed at something. You do not have the right to tell them that they cannot!

Kevin Yong August 19, 2010 at 6:00am

Ralph Ellis Miley said:

....As Micheal said, all of us who draw would love to make a living at it, but for many of us, it does not become a reality. And many of us have enough sense not to quit our day jobs to make money doing comics. If Micheal was saying he was quitting his job in the service to draw comics, then we could say, wait a minute, don't do that. He wanted advice, critiques, and suggestios on how to improve his skills, not break into the field. Based on what he wanted, we give him advice on how to improve his skills. Get a sketchbook, buy books, work on his backgrounds. And as he improves, provide encouragement and where he needs help, provide instruction. Then when it comes time for him to produce that book for his son, we use our experience to guide him to the most economically viable plan to match his budget so that he doesn't mortgage his house. And if his book inspires his son, we can take pleasure in the fact we have helped our brother. Who knows, it may inspire his son to be the next Jack Chick or Al Hartley.

I agree with Ralph's approach to this. Both the person seeking a critique and the person giving it should be realistic about the context of what's being asked.

On one hand, is it an amateur artist asking advice on ways to improve for their own creative enjoyment? If so, I'd offer similar advice to what's been given: read some good books, practice a lot, study more anatomy/life drawing, etc. On the other hand, is it an amateur artist asking advice on how to make a professional career out of work that isn't at professional quality? If so, I'd offer a sincere and realistic warning to not quit the day job or mortgage the house to finance a self-publishing venture.

I think that both kinds of requests and critiques have their place; we just need to be clear about what's being asked. (Which Michael definitely has been. Thanks for having such a great attitude and receiving all the critiques in the spirit in which they've been given!)

Calvary Comics August 19, 2010 at 2:43am

Steve Shipley said:

I agree with you at least partially. Not all are called to draw. All I'm saying is that you are not the one to decide that. You really don't want to sit on that throne!

What I'm saying is that if talent is like a seed (or seeds), and if a professional artist/art director is like a seasoned gardener, then we can till the ground, water it, add plant food, etc., but if the seeds aren't there, what can we do? I do recognize true artistic potential, and the lack thereof, and have been trained to perceive this. Being a Spirit-filled Christian only increases one's discernment fourfold. There's not a word I've shared on this thread that I haven't prayed about first. Nothing rash is stated here on my part. I bear ill will towards no one.

Romans 8:28 is one of my favorite verses: "All things work together for good to them who love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose." In that context, I believe this has been a very healthy and helpful discussion. Michael, I'm sorry it veered away from a critique of your work to a more general topic, but I believe the momentary 'detour' is well worth it for everyone. This is an "iron sharpens iron" talk.

Agape in Christ,

Alec

Michael Dean August 18, 2010 at 7:20pm

I almost feel as though I should apologize for how this thread has ended up. I asked for critique fully prepared for negative and positive comments, and I am thankful for everyone's input. As I stated, my main goal is to create a comic for print on demand for my son. That is a fully reachable goal. I know an exclusive Marvel or DC contract is not in my future. My comic will not sell a million copies. I'm ok with this, because that is not my goal. I just want to give my son the best comic that I am capable of. I truly appreciate everyone taking time to offer feedback. I do hope I didn't seem disrespectful of professional artists. I have a great respect for professional artists and their ability to do what they do. I just draw for fun, nothing more. I hope to post more work in the future for feedback, positive or negative, and will gladly take any critique offered. Even though I know comics will never be more than a hobby for me, I'd still like to improve as much as I can. Thank you all for your comments and suggestions.

Ralph Ellis Miley August 18, 2010 at 5:04pm

When I would take my portfolio to the cons, all the pros would tell me; get a sketchbook and just draw all the time, they would suggest buying this book or that book; they would tell me to work on my backgrounds; and so on and so on. And their advice was good and very much appreciated. As Micheal said, all of us who draw would love to make a living at it, but for many of us, it does not become a reality. And many of us have enough sense not to quit our day jobs to make money doing comics. If Micheal was saying he was quitting his job in the service to draw comics, then we could say, wait a minute, don't do that. He wanted advice, critiques, and suggestios on how to improve his skills, not break into the field. Based on what he wanted, we give him advice on how to improve his skills. Get a sketchbook, buy books, work on his backgrounds. And as he improves, provide encouragement and where he needs help, provide instruction. Then when it comes time for him to produce that book for his son, we use our experience to guide him to the most economically viable plan to match his budget so that he doesn't mortgage his house. And if his book inspires his son, we can take pleasure in the fact we have helped our brother. Who knows, it may inspire his son to be the next Jack Chick or Al Hartley.

Steve Shipley August 18, 2010 at 2:19pm

I agree with you at least partially. Not all are called to draw. All I'm saying is that you are not the one to decide that. You really don't want to sit on that throne!

Calvary Comics said:

I agree with your latest post, Steve, but I did not and am not saying "I am a professional" or "an expert" in a prideful way, but matter of factly. There is a great difference. And I'm not the only one on this board either, nor claim to be. There are a handful of others, and would welcome them weighing in on this (thank you, Buzz, for sharing your thoughts on the matter, being a professional writer with an artistic eye).

There is the natural and the spiritual. Asking for a critique on drawing is natural, and having natural talent, cultivated through years and years of training and through many years of professional experience after that, I can speak with calm (not prideful) authority---to help, not hurt.

I understand about worship music, having played guitar for 32 years (the early years in a professional, secular setting; I've played with some top jazz musicians in time past; in fact, the former music director at my church---Times Square Church in New York City---previously toured and recorded for eight years with Wynton Marsalis, THE jazz musician in today's world). If you want to talk harmony, counterpoint, scales, modes, chord progressions, etc. in classical, jazz, Gospel, r&b, and any other musical genre, that's not a problem. I play a Yamaha FG-335 acoustic and a 1962 reissue (made in 1987) Fender Stratocaster (electric).

Worshipping Christ in Spirit and truth is another matter. However, we do want to have good musical mechanics, naturally speaking, so that we're not distracting the congregation as they enter into His presence via worship. I know that you know that, Steve, and concur. Bad art, likewise, can be a distraction to the Gospel message in comics. The work should at least be competent on a BASIC professional level which still requires a lot of work to achieve. We want the message of Christ to shine through, and for hearts and lives to be touched.

The bottom line: we are ALL called to preach (proclaim/share) this glorious Gospel---that Jesus Christ has paid the price for our sins at Calvary so we (fallen humanity) don't have to go to hell, and that He has triumphed over sin and death---but we are not all called to draw. We are ALL called to be true worshippers, but we're not all called to be worship leaders. Even the Psalms in the Old Testament speak of playing skillfully on a ten-stringed instrument. The musically talented (gifted of God) amongst the Levites did that, and there were eleven other tribes who were not called to that capacity of temple ministry.

Calvary Comics August 18, 2010 at 1:55pm

I agree with your latest post, Steve, but I did not and am not saying "I am a professional" or "an expert" in a prideful way, but matter of factly. There is a great difference. And I'm not the only one on this board either, nor claim to be. There are a handful of others, and would welcome them weighing in on this (thank you, Buzz, for sharing your thoughts on the matter, being a professional writer with an artistic eye).

There is the natural and the spiritual. Asking for a critique on drawing is natural, and having natural talent, cultivated through years and years of training and through many years of professional experience after that, I can speak with calm (not prideful) authority---to help, not hurt.

I understand about worship music, having played guitar for 32 years (the early years in a professional, secular setting; I've played with some top jazz musicians in time past; in fact, the former music director at my church---Times Square Church in New York City---previously toured and recorded for eight years with Wynton Marsalis, THE jazz musician in today's world). If you want to talk harmony, counterpoint, scales, modes, chord progressions, etc. in classical, jazz, Gospel, r&b, and any other musical genre, that's not a problem. I play a Yamaha FG-335 acoustic and a 1962 reissue (made in 1987) Fender Stratocaster (electric).

Worshipping Christ in Spirit and truth is another matter. However, we do want to have good musical mechanics, naturally speaking, so that we're not distracting the congregation as they enter into His presence via worship. I know that you know that, Steve, and concur. Bad art, likewise, can be a distraction to the Gospel message in comics. The work should at least be competent on a BASIC professional level which still requires a lot of work to achieve. We want the message of Christ to shine through, and for hearts and lives to be touched.

The bottom line: we are ALL called to preach (proclaim/share) this glorious Gospel---that Jesus Christ has paid the price for our sins at Calvary so we (fallen humanity) don't have to go to hell, and that He has triumphed over sin and death---but we are not all called to draw. We are ALL called to be true worshippers, but we're not all called to be worship leaders. Even the Psalms in the Old Testament speak of playing skillfully on a ten-stringed instrument. The musically talented (gifted of God) amongst the Levites did that, and there were eleven other tribes who were not called to that capacity of temple ministry.

Steve Shipley August 18, 2010 at 12:48pm

I am the worship leader in my church. That does not give me the right to be Simon Cowell to aspiring musicians or singers. I am a good guitarist and singer, by the grace of God, and am by no means, an expert. I work to develop all those who want to serve the Lord with music. Many time I have seen people touched by the Holy Spirit through those with the least talent. It is our natural talent that many times gets in the way. We think God cannot move aside from our abilities, when quite the opposite is true.
What the Lord really requires is an empty vessel. All this talk of, "I am the professional", or "the expert" is PRIDE!
As Christians, we are to be different than the world. We are not God. We do not know what a person has inside or what he will become or how God may use him.
I was once told that I should give up music, but a few years later I was a worship leader and have been for 30 years. I was told that I couldn't draw but I have sold hundreds of cartoons to Christian and secular magazines and newspapers. Who has the right to limit another man's potential?
In the end, we will not be judged for our wonderful talent. There will be no "experts" in heaven.

Steve Shipley August 18, 2010 at 12:12pm

I do not want to get into strife with you, Alec. I disagree with you and your outlook, will keep you in prayer and leave it at that. I stand by my statements in my previous post and you are entiled to your opinions as well.

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