Here are some pages from my comic/webcomic project "The Outworlder" (he's the guy in black). I know my cityscape needs a lot of work. Any other feedback would be much appreciated. Thank you.
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Indeed, please don't stop posting. I took no offense to any of your critique and I'm am sure there are many who can benfit from your experience within both the mainstream and Christian sectors of the business. You took some of your time to offer your input to me, and I appreciate it very much. My initial post did not mention that this was only a hobby for me, so I could well have been thinking of quitting my day job. Thankfully, I'm not, but it does not lessen the value of your input at all.
I'd hate to see you refrain from posting, Alec, as I believe there is much value in honest and detailed critiques. As long as the artist is prepared to accept it in the spirit in which it's offered. (And I also still agree with the earlier suggestion -- I think it was from Buzz -- that we really need some way to more clearly identify requests for feedback from hobbyist/amateurs who are merely asking how to make incremental improvements, from the aspiring professional who is asking if they're really ready to quit their day job.)
-- Kevin
The whole point of my original response was to provide a stark contrast (perhaps I overdid it, eh?) to the "pollyannic" (unrealistic) advice given to Michael.
I teach college students, but I also teach about 70 children (Christian co-op homeschoolers) art and music once a week, and have done that for about 12 years. Again, in my experience---and I'm not sharing anything original or revelatory here, as this has been the observation of many educators for generations---artistic and musical gifts are evidenced in childhood, and cultivated to a level of expertise by young adulthood. Why? Children are like sponges in that their minds are more open to learning (new languages, e.g.) than at any other time in later life. These are the formative years. Adult responsibilities (a full-time job, a spouse, children, volunteer ministry, etc.) do not permit time to develop like those first 18 years do. When I see a child with promising talent, I endeavor to assist him/her to gain artistic ground as much as possible (at his/her pace); same with adults: I've had some college students who were artistically talented as children, but went into business, and many years later, came back to have a stab at 'their dream.' At the Kubert School, there is a screening process, just like there is in the military. A USMC drill instructor once told a young recruit (later a pastor), "You know why we have basic training? It is to weed out the undesirables."
My original post in this thread was meant to provide balance and contrast. It would have been a lot "safer" for me to say nothing (as many others have). I knew there would probably be a fair amount of ill will generated towards me if I stood up and said something about "the elephant" (or "the emperor's new clothes").
I probably won't be posting much here in the future, except to make announcements about new Christian books (mine and others).
Alec
I guess I'm all mouth and no results.
Congrats on all the praise for your work. for the record, you were one of the exceptions i was talking about, although i disagree with some of your methods of critique.
I guess i thought i should stand up for those of us who were referred to as liars for encouraging someone instead of equalling them to an 8 year old. i wasn't in the thick of the discussion, but i was one of the first who responded.
also, i have never heard a non-Chrisitian professional comic creator defend an unkind critique of an amateur or aspiring creator based on their status as a professional. I wish I did not know of Christians doing this, as we're supposed to be about equality. and shouldn't we recognize that none of our art compares to God's true creation?
http://sirspamdalot.livejournal.com/71894.html#cutid1
@ Michael: I've taught children how to draw convincing self portraits of themselves in a week. Ages 6-12. There was still a long way to go - but after one week of barely being able to draw a circle, I could get them to do a self-portrait - that actually looked like themselves. 1 week. (Might have been 2 but I'm pretty sure it was in 1).
SO here's the lesson: IF you apply yourself - and actually practice and study, analyze and draw and LOOK - you will move forward. You can do it. A lot of it boils down to thinking about what your drawing and taking the time make it right. Don't rush. Also be willing to be self critical.
IF after an extended period of time you see no improvement in your work, then, and only then hang up your pencil - but only if you see no improvement. There are other ways to be involved in comics if your "artistic" side doesn't flourish:
a) Become a publisher - get people to execute your ideas for you
b) Learn how to write and then find the artists to do it for you
Also - as mentioned before - do it for fun of it / the love of it / the passion of it.
Is there an elephant in the room? Yup. What is it? Your art isn't up to "pro level". Fine. We can solve that issue by shooting the elephant, and then eating it's ears in a sandwich. It just may take a bit of time.
And you'll probably wish you stayed out of it. As Solomon wrote in the Proverbs, "Like a man who takes a dog by the ears, so is one who enters an argument that is not his own."
Well, that makes a lot of sense. You've defused your own argument, in your own words. Buzz Dixon first referenced the "elephant," and I seconded it. That sounds like (at least) two witness to me.
My first two books were distributed by Diamond. I chose to not go with them for subsequent titles, because they gouge 62% off cover price per book, so there wasn't a large profit margin. How about yourself? Are you producing or publishing any Christian comics---or are you all mouth and no results? Steve Shipley referenced Elvis Presley earlier, and I will, too: "a little less conversation, a little more action please."
You make all these obliquely disparaging remarks, saying that one who hasn't won Eisners, been critically acclaimed, had major sales of books, etc. shouldn't be listened to. Nothing oblique about my response; I'll give it to you straight: I broke into professional comics in 1985 at age twenty. Gary Groth, publisher of THE COMICS JOURNAL and Fantagraphics Books, said of that story in AMAZING HEROES: "It is the most sensitive and faithful adaptation of a prose story into comics form that I have ever seen... Alec Stevens is perhaps the most exciting discovery since the Hernandez brothers..." In 1988 DC's Piranha Press imprint (a precursor to the Vertigo line) began, and the editor reviewed over 400 submissions, as he stated in THE COMICS BUYERS GUIDE. Only nine out of 400 graphic novels were selected, and two of them were mine. The first book won THE L.A. READER "Critics Choice: Book of the Week" award in November, 1989. Bernie (Swamp Thing) Wrightson told me that it was the best book he'd seen in the past five years. Mike (Hellboy) Mignola told me at a con in 1993, "I'm working towards a style like yours." Bill Sienkiewicz said, "I love your work!" when we didn't know each other. Steranko remarked, "I like your high contrast style" (in my NEW YORK TIMES illustrations). BOOKLIST (published by the American Library Association),I.D. magazine in the UK and many others gave my secular graphic novels the highest commendation. When I drew SANDMAN #51 for DC/Vertigo in 1993, it sold 110,000 copies in two weeks (due to writer Neil Gaiman's popularity, of course), and editor Karen Berger later wrote to me that "it is one of my all-time favorite Sandman stories." Joe Kubert was interviewed a year or two ago for DRAW! magazine, and spoke highly of my work. As for the Eisner and Harvey awards, those are basically an insider popularity contest, and I long ago ceased to run with that crowd after the Lord apprehended me.
Alec
Daniel Conner said:
Michael- I like your comic because I think it is the best premise I've heard in a long time- your making it for your son's enjoyment- and what's more Christian than that? My dad drew a college comic strip years before I was born and still draws cartoons in bday cards and stuff- all for fun- (tho its better than some stuff people try to do more seriously) and I promise you that of all the spiderman books I had, if he had drawn for me- like what your drawing, it would have been my favorite book. I like where you're coming from and I look forward to buying a copy for that reason.
And Michael, if an 8 year old were to draw like you, that would be a very talented 8 year old. I didn't invest myself into drawing sequential comics until I was like 10 and I wish those looked as good as yours- I don't know if that sounds silly, I wouldn't have made that age statement- but maybe I need to see documented work from 8 year olds.
(Now from an editor's stand point, I'd have to ask if I could sell your comic to others- that may be harder to do- but there are tons of comics I can't sell to people... Especially since Christian super heroes have never been an easy sell in comics. But sales are not what your going for, so I'm sure you will be a success, based on your goal).
Next- we're throwing around the word "professional"- and I know many of us here get free pro badges from comic con- so I guess we're considered pros in that sense- but really- who here earns a living by being a comic creator full time? And even my friends that only work in comics are working for multiple companies to (maybe) make ends meet- the truth is that even in "mainstream- secular marvel, dc" comics, lots of people have to have other jobs- that's just the comics industry today. That or people pretend they are making it when they hardly are- let alone supporting a family. And what happens when you're in between jobs? Not fun, I'm sure. Most people in the comics industry are part time, at best- and that's accross the board. let alone how fickle the industry is- you may be a big hit one year and a few later, a nobody.
And with a few exceptions, who here has their comics distributed by diamond, or on borders, or even family Christian bookshelves today? And isn't that just the baseline of success for the book or comics industry- let alone if stores order them and then consumers buy them- that's 3 hoops to jump thru- this is a problem for Christians and non-christians alike.
And if we're so good at comics- where are our Eisners- where are our books in stores? Where are our sales figures? There are some Christian based works with those- but unless we have those, I don't think we have much room to criticize or speak from a pro stand point.
I know a little about comics- and some about Christianity (actually, I probly know more about comics, tho I'm working on my second degree in our faith...) But I don't want to call anything (woudln't it be better to point out areas that need improvement, strategically, if we're going to focus on things that don't look good?) out in peoples work since it can get down to stylistic opinions- who am I to say that something won't sell? Many of my favorite comics aren't huge sellers. I don't enjoy most of what marvel and dc are putting out today- but many people do. And what sold large numbers in the 90's are largely laughed at today. A popular style in the 90's was to have characters who purposely had incongruent anatomy- and these were on some of the biggest comics properties.
I didn't ignore an elephant in the room- becuase I didn't see one. I'm a special ed teacher by trade and we have 2 big things- #1 is documentation- unless you can back something up, then it means nothing and #2 is positive reinforcement- we address the positive more than the negative (which also brings the negative to light) you can't ignore the negative, but if I say, "I see potential in 10% of your work, grow that" as opposed to "90% of your work is horrible, give up" I'm not helping anyone- that didn't happen here, but it is my reason for focusing on the positive and not the negative and I don't see that as any form of lying.
i know in part and i can only speak in part- it is true that anything less than the truth is a lie, but if i only have a short amount of time to express something, i can express a small amount of something, without betraying factuality. that doesn't make it deception. it isn't perfect, true, but it isn't a falsehood.
Even when Scott McCloud looked thru my work, he mentioned some books to me, gratiously taking time out of his busy comic con schedule, and did not criticize (tho he sure could have!)- and to my knowlege, he's not a Christian. He encouraged my areas of need and strengths.
Do we need to help aspiring comic creators (note;I didn't say professionals, since there are so few, esp. Christians!)- yes we do! But unless we've won eisners or have critically acclaimed or top selling books, why should anyone listen?
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