Angels & Fire

Steve Crespo March 13, 2012 at 12:08pm

Whoa. Sorry if you took that as my intent. The word never, ever entered my mind.

Ever.

Relax your guard. We're all friends here.

Steven Lynch March 13, 2012 at 11:13am

Kinda sounds like you're insinuating that someone is a liar.

Steve Crespo March 13, 2012 at 8:40am

Fiction is one thing. Truth is another. I like to keep them separate.

Any and all topics are welcome from what I have seen... given the right context, that is.

:-)

Steven Lynch March 13, 2012 at 7:59am

You’ll excuse me if I’m a little surprised here… This is the Comics Arts Society … right? I sort of thought this was the perfect place to discuss things a little… off the beaten path.

Giants, Angels, Witches, Demons, Nazi-Melting Golden Boxes, Time Traveling Jews… Dead Men getting up and walking around… you folks discuss some of this right?

Steve Crespo March 13, 2012 at 6:02am

"...the hybridization of Human/Animal/Technological creatures that will open the door for a “new Age” of humans."

Yes, it is this very science-fictionesque aspect of Missler's teachings that throws me off.

Many years ago I was at a pastor's conference when he showed up as a special, unannounced guest speaker. (I was already very wary of his teachings.) He started getting into something to do with the pyramids in Egypt and biblical prophecy, and I very politely got up, and walked out. (Much to the amusement of my friends and pastor.)

I once spoke with the late Bob Passantino about Chuck Missler. I was baffled as to why his teachings- which are jammed full of speculations, and leaps of logic- were so popular, and why when many of his "prophecies" were completely wrong (such as his Y2K teachings), why were people so willing to sit and listen to more speculation.

From what I remember of his answer, he basically said there will always be people who love to hear speculative, conspiratorial, ear-tickling theories because it puts them in "the know", AND people in general have very short memories.

Yes, a lot of teachers agree or have similar teachings as Chuck Missler, but lest we fall into the logical fallacy of argument from authority, you should keep in mind that a great many Biblical teachers and scholars DO NOT agree with Chuck Missler on a great many of his more imaginative teachings.

This is not to say he is not a good man. I believe he is. I just think he goes too far in his assertions and speculations.

Steven Lynch March 13, 2012 at 4:48am

Good Brother,

Thanks for the response. For the record… and full disclosure, I am … more than a “fan” of Dr. Missler. I’m a longtime supporter of his ministry and student, and have been a Teaching Assistant for the Koinonia Institute.

Chuck has been a great influence in my life… and has really helped me to learn and enrich myself with what I consider a far better understanding of the book. Chuck also was a great source of strength to me personally when I last saw him after my father died two years ago.

HOWEVER… Dr. Missler is not the lone voice on this subject. There are other scholars and prophets and such that are pointing to Genesis 6 and other scriptures for insight into what is currently at work in our world. Tom Horn and Michael Heiser would be two names I could throw out for you if you were looking for names.

If you’ve listened or studied Dr. Missler’s material, then I don’t think I need to rehash or debate some of your arguments. He’s answered them competently in my opinion. The corporeal nature of the Angelic host included.

I’m not sure what your theological and doctrinal background is… mine is/was Southern Baptist. They of course do not recognize the Angelic view officially… or practically. While they do give lip service to the possibility of the Angelic view… their doctrine officially ignores it as having any significance.

I would say that that baggage of doctrinal deniability is something that I have had to … let go.

It has not been without a cost.

Being invited to “go visit other churches” by several Pastors… more than once, takes its toll on a person, and his family.

But… my purpose in joining this site was not to debate. I can do that … elsewhere.

As far as the concept of are the Nephilim making a comeback? That is unclear. However, both Tom Horn and Missler are putting the statement out there that what IS currently happening in Scientific, Military and Academic circles is a push for experiments in the hybridization of Human/Animal/Technological creatures that will open the door for a “new Age” of humans.

Missler and Horn both point out that the real problem of the Nephilim of Genesis 6… is that they were NOT Human. They were also a threat to ending what WAS human… and preventing the arrival of a Messiah… a Kinsman Redeemer of Adam.

No humans… no Kinsman Redeemer… AND… no one left to be redeemed.

If you ever saw Braveheart… King Edward I said “The trouble with Scotland, is that its full of Scots”… He then implemented the doctrine of “Prima Nocte”… First night. “If we can’t get them out, we’ll BREED them out.”

Steve Crespo March 13, 2012 at 2:32am

Steven,

I am well aware of Chuck Missler's teachings. I have been for many years. I am not a fan. The logical leaps he makes at times I find wwaayyy too long, and send all kinds of red flags up in my mind. (I have friends who are fascinated by his more speculative teachings. I always found them a bit too speculative.)

Further, the arguments I raised seem pretty difficult to climb, and at least are worthy of some consideration. I have read on this issue a bit, and I find the whole fallen angel thing completely without merit.

I see no reason to believe it from the Scriptures, and with the use of good, ol' fashioned God given logic, there is no rational reason to believe it either.

As I said: "...angels and demons are non-corporeal beings. Being spiritual in nature, they have no physical substance, and though they may have the ability to APPEAR as human, that in no way means they BECOME human, capable of creating sperm and impregnating women. (At the risk of being indelicate.) That would be a matter of changing their very nature- a complete ontological metamorphosis."

But I'm curious... what do you mean by this?- "the times... they are a' changin' AND it would BEHOOVE us all to re-examine some of the lost knowledge of what was happening in Genesis 6."

How do the changing times necessitate that I rethink the Nephilim? Are they making a comeback?

Which brings up another argument against this theory... if the Nephilim are the offspring of fallen angels and human beings, why aren't they still being produced today? Why are they relegated to the OT days?

Steven Lynch March 13, 2012 at 1:39am

Mr. Crespo,

Not to dissect your post ... but I would urge you to seek out some better information on this Topic... Dr. Chuck Missler has some excellent teaching on the subject of the Nephilim and he makes a clear distinction between what are considered Fallen Angels and Demons.

I would also respectfully counsel that Scripture has far more to say about this subject than you may have been taught. I've met some very wise and good Christian folks who are trying to give warning to the Christian Body at large... that the times... they are a' changin' AND it would BEHOOVE us all to re-examine some of the lost knowledge of what was happening in Genesis 6.

Steve Crespo said:

Yes, and that is an issue that is hotly debated.

I'd encourage you to dig into it, but here are some things to mull over. Consider Genesis 6...

"Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose."

The context of the first verse puts the following verses in the idea of HUMAN reproduction. "...MEN began to multiply..." Nowhere in this chapter do we read specifically that demons reproduced.

Also we read in scripture that angels do not marry as men do (Mt.22:30), and we read here that there was some marrying going on.

Continuing in that context, the Lord says: "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." ...The Lord is grieved with man, and makes no mention of demons.

The Scriptures continue: "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Note that it says that "the Nephilim were on the earth in those days". It in no way connects the Nephilim to be the product of demons and humans. It is simply not in the text. It just says they were there in those days.

Plus, we see contextually the Lord's grieving over MAN'S wickedness. No mention of demons.

So, the question arises: who are the sons of God? One view is that they are the godly line of Seth, and that the intermarrying was spiritual. Believers becoming unequally yoked to pagans. That certainly would upset the Lord.

In any case, the question of who these guys were still rages. Their definition is not specifically stated in Scripture, thus we cannot definitely say they were demons. This plus the issues of context would lead me to believe that another explanation is needed.

Plus, as I pointed out before, angels and demons are non-corporeal beings. Being spiritual in nature, they have no physical substance, and though they may have the ability to APPEAR as human, that in no way means they BECOME human, capable of creating sperm and impregnating women. (At the risk of being indelicate.) That would be a matter of changing their very nature- a complete ontological metamorphosis.

And besides, did not God say all creatures would reproduce after their own kind?

Scripture simply does not support that view.

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Steven Lynch March 13, 2012 at 1:28am

Hey folks... I joined this group for a couple of reasons... one was to contact Mario Ruiz... and another is to discover what was being said about the subject of the Nephilim.

There is far more going on in the Genesis 6 passage than it looks like you folks are aware of.

The subject is being HOTLY debated and promoted within the Christian "Prophecy" community right now because of where Science and Technology is taking us.

In regards to their relevance to our salvation.... uh, from what I NOW know... I'd say, yeah, it's relevant when you understand the role of the Kinsman Redeemer.

The entire Comic Book industry's origin is derived from Genesis 6:1-4. The more you examine and understand... Superman would be considered Angelic... Batman, a Nephilim, Spiderman, Nephilim, the list goes on and on.

Alika Parsons January 26, 2012 at 11:11am

It's not the same words in the original language. The Malachim didn't come in unto the daughters of men, nor did the se'irim or the shedim. It was the Elohim, different word different entity: not demons, not angels, they were the sons of God.

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Angels & Fire

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