aloha again!i have seen to many christian comics where the girl is way to SEXY.how do we show an attactive women in a comic and not send the wrong message. disney totally FAILS on this with most of their modern princess (pochahontes, ect) has anyone seen it done right before? the only example i could think of is JESSIE from toystory 2she is female, very cute, attactive and NOT sexy. anyone else?le0www.aydellon.com
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I don't really disagree with you. Now you start to tap into the whole sociological thing and that becomes a huge discussion in and of itself - which may or may not have an answer.
Did God intend women to produce art in a way different than men?
Now that is an intriguing question - and clarifies what you were getting at.
The GENERAL rule (which to means it is more people will adhere to it) not because it's written rule and this is how society is supposed to operate - but more from an observational point of view: women will gravitate to certain things and men will gravitate to others, and never the twain shall meet. THOUGH, yes, there can be some crossover. C'est la vie.
Another question: Can two men create art the same way? One can copy by wrote - but they will still only see the world as they see the world. Thematically yes, I think they can approach art the same way - however final output never.
Now - if we start talking "sexual", as in erotic - unless a woman has been affected or pushed by some sort of "outside influence*" (at least in my opinion**) they will generally avoid this approach. Men on the other hand...
Oy. Just thought of this: Are you getting at the notion that when a woman creates art - you can tell it was done by a woman (generally) and when a man creates art, you can tell it was done by a guy? Culture, society, locale, and the like will all definitely affect the individual.
I still think due to the way the genders function, it affects the output.
*outside influence in this case is a vague term and can indicate a plethora of things.
**Opinions are like a-holes. Their full of @%&$ and everyone's got one - specially me!
I think for me the story is most important. If the female characters all look like Barbie dolls and whine I probably will not read the second volume. Are female artists fundamentally different from male artists? How would we distinguish that? From the artwork itself? From the choice of drawing/painting materials used? I'm still trying to discover what it means to be an artist and how to develop that skill. I'm not sure I'll ever be finished exploring that...and will probably continue to experiment to the end of my days. So my work will probably look different from time to time.
O...by the way...I never had a Barbie doll. I did not like them. I had a Ken doll and about 3 G.I. Joes that one could dress. I did not play war with them...but took them on camping adventures.
Do people honestly think female artists are in some way fudimentaly[sic] different than Male artists?
Yep. They are. Because of nature. Women are women, men are men. And that, is the crux.
From observation, and readings over time this is what you can know:
1) Men are generally VISUAL creatures. We are triggered by imagery. That is why you will have more men who hunt, do architecture, build websites, and yes, read and create comic books.
This also explains why men "get turned on" or will chase certain women, and even go to war for them because, dag nab it - they (or their shapes, when it comes to art) appeal to our visual sensibility.
2) Women are generally AUDITORY. This means they are really good at listening, hearing, and capable of multitasking, since they are receiving information from all over the place. It also explains why a beautiful woman can hook up with a butt ugly guy, and why a lot of women don't read, or care less about "comic books". The visual doesn't mean as much to the female as it does to the male.
Also because of this, you will find what attracts a male artist will generally be different than what attracts a female artist. But that of course doesn't take into account various upbringings, sociological things and more.
It kind of hard to say, Buzz because a lot of people look at my artwork online and assume that I'm a guy. Even in person I get asked about 80% of the time who did the artwork for JK then they are stunned when I say I do. Probably because I tend to try to make my artwork look like the comics I like from artists who are mostly male. So I think it depends on who inspires you as an artist that makes you draw in that style or rather what God births in you as a Christian for His purpose. ^_^
Beloved in Grace,
Souba
I'm not sure if I'm the first if not only female to chime in I haven't read all the posts, but well here I go.
I get that comics are mainly drawn by men and well men use comic art to draw what they perceive as the ideal women or what society says is the way a women should look. They're not saved either so I don't expect them to have consideration for the opposite sex because in this generation we have a lot of women out there from broken homes selling themselves cheap, the media reflect that. I think if society begins to value life by knowing that God valued them enough to give His Son Jesus we'd see that change. Perhaps the same goes with Christians who are giving into the pressure of the world to conform, they need to know that God will bless their work so they don't have to stoop to the world's level to sell a comic, we have the favor and grace of God peoples!
Anymoo, I admit as a women it makes me angry still I know it won't accomplish anything by trying to get back at men because the main problem is needing God at their core. I guess the only good thing about it is that I get more determined to push my creative levels and draw attractive women that are decent. ^_^ So I attached a female character I made as an example of my try at it.
Beloved in Grace,
Souba
Disney makes their girls too sexy? Attractive maybe. Bland and repetitive? Possibly. Too sexy? Hm. I may have to disagree with that one. (Except for maybe Esmerelda in Hunchback - but she's supposed to be that way).
I don't think "sexy" is the right term. I have no problems drawing a "sexy" woman if the script calls for it. What if the script calls for the wife of the male character decides to sashay around and act "sexy" - she might not even be "attractive" - but she is "sexy."
I think the term here is: "Sexualized". Sexualizing the woman is, yes, a common problem - sometimes done in a mistaken attempt at trying to create a woman that is "attractive".
So how does one "overly sexualize" a woman character?
1. Posing
Does the character tend to bend over a lot? Does she thrust out her hips a lot? Is there an over emphasis on certain parts of the body? Are certain areas drawn that end up being more suggestive than they should be? Are certain curves or poses used that might suggest more than they should?
2. Clothing choices
Does she have a low cut shirt? Are her pants too tight? Too low? Her dress? Does she wear 9 inch heels? Does she wear lacey stuff? Or does she have a boustier? Etc. etc. etc.
3. Face - expressions and actual facial structure:
Does she have pouty lips? Bedroom eyes? Too much make up? Is the face set up to look "sexy" all the time? Is the face swept back? Is hair a certain way? I think the face is probably one of the most important things to consider in this.
All these things combine in order to make the image say one thing or another. The artist needs to be aware of what they are portraying and why. The artist may be at fault for not considering the ramifications of their drawings.
The flip side is, the artist may be only be making the woman look that way because that's all they know from other comics and thinks that's how your supposed to portray women in comics. They may not even be aware that what they're drawing is overly sexual.
Now - it's not illustration per se, but the girl character in Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs is attractive but not "overly sexualized".
i have seen to many christian comics where the girl is way to SEXY.
Which comics are you referring to?
With great difficulty. And the illustrations (should it ever get there) would have to be true to the text. But would it ever be shown outside of the context of my own environment? But before even tackling a project of this topic, would definitely pray about the approach.
Joe King said:
Howdy - I believe it depends on your age/audience. If you are doing a TOY STORY type project that is fine, but when you frame your inhibitions with Puritan paranoia, the resulting repression is not a healthy witness. How would you illustrate the Book of Solomon's Song?
It's completely xxx!
God hasn't stopped making physically beautiful women even after sin came into the world.
But God still wants all the glory and our attention - even if there are breasts in the world and breasts on the page.
So as Christian creators ourselves, I don't think we will stop illustrating sexy women - provided that our Creator is glorified and gets the attention.
A practical tip would be to have the fashion, pose, and framing of sexy women focus on their faces rather than their bodies. So make sure you can draw women that don't look like men!
Amen brother! I think you have hit it on the button. We just do it. My art studio is often on a school bus steering wheel (now you know my secular job). Teen's who admire my work asked me if I ever have drawn a naked woman. Candidly I replied...of course. After the laughs and jokes they asked me how often, and of course I replied, everytime. How else am I supposed to know to draw the clothes right unless all the parts are there? At that point, it made sense to them why it's natural.
Every last one of us is quite capable of drawing the Songs of Solomon. If fact, that would make a great comic jam idea. A comic jam about a rabbi trying to explain to a young man why he can't read the Song of Solomon for another year. Where's Dan-O? He's got to hear this one.
Martin Murtonen said:
Now for our brother Leo and his quest to create the cute girl without all the fanservice, let us continue on finding the right way to draw women without offending God, compromising our faith, and still being awesome artists for Christ.
I think it can be done quite easily. Just observe real people (in this case woman/women) and draw them. If they happen to be cute, well then...!
(I'd love to take a crack at Song Of Solomon. And no, I wouldn't play it safe either - though I don' t know if I would dare show the outcome. The biggest difficulty is translating all the metaphors, and at a certain point you no longer know what's what - it's as if the metaphors don't hold until the end just to obstruct any possibility of it being visualized. Apparently, according to the Rabbi's you have to 30 yrs. or older before you're allowed to read it.)
Replies
I don't really disagree with you. Now you start to tap into the whole sociological thing and that becomes a huge discussion in and of itself - which may or may not have an answer.
Now that is an intriguing question - and clarifies what you were getting at.
The GENERAL rule (which to means it is more people will adhere to it) not because it's written rule and this is how society is supposed to operate - but more from an observational point of view: women will gravitate to certain things and men will gravitate to others, and never the twain shall meet. THOUGH, yes, there can be some crossover. C'est la vie.
Another question: Can two men create art the same way? One can copy by wrote - but they will still only see the world as they see the world. Thematically yes, I think they can approach art the same way - however final output never.
Now - if we start talking "sexual", as in erotic - unless a woman has been affected or pushed by some sort of "outside influence*" (at least in my opinion**) they will generally avoid this approach. Men on the other hand...
Oy. Just thought of this: Are you getting at the notion that when a woman creates art - you can tell it was done by a woman (generally) and when a man creates art, you can tell it was done by a guy? Culture, society, locale, and the like will all definitely affect the individual.
I still think due to the way the genders function, it affects the output.
*outside influence in this case is a vague term and can indicate a plethora of things.
**Opinions are like a-holes. Their full of @%&$ and everyone's got one - specially me!
O...by the way...I never had a Barbie doll. I did not like them. I had a Ken doll and about 3 G.I. Joes that one could dress. I did not play war with them...but took them on camping adventures.
Yep. They are. Because of nature. Women are women, men are men. And that, is the crux.
From observation, and readings over time this is what you can know:
1) Men are generally VISUAL creatures. We are triggered by imagery. That is why you will have more men who hunt, do architecture, build websites, and yes, read and create comic books.
This also explains why men "get turned on" or will chase certain women, and even go to war for them because, dag nab it - they (or their shapes, when it comes to art) appeal to our visual sensibility.
2) Women are generally AUDITORY. This means they are really good at listening, hearing, and capable of multitasking, since they are receiving information from all over the place. It also explains why a beautiful woman can hook up with a butt ugly guy, and why a lot of women don't read, or care less about "comic books". The visual doesn't mean as much to the female as it does to the male.
Also because of this, you will find what attracts a male artist will generally be different than what attracts a female artist. But that of course doesn't take into account various upbringings, sociological things and more.
It kind of hard to say, Buzz because a lot of people look at my artwork online and assume that I'm a guy. Even in person I get asked about 80% of the time who did the artwork for JK then they are stunned when I say I do. Probably because I tend to try to make my artwork look like the comics I like from artists who are mostly male. So I think it depends on who inspires you as an artist that makes you draw in that style or rather what God births in you as a Christian for His purpose. ^_^
Beloved in Grace,
Souba
I get that comics are mainly drawn by men and well men use comic art to draw what they perceive as the ideal women or what society says is the way a women should look. They're not saved either so I don't expect them to have consideration for the opposite sex because in this generation we have a lot of women out there from broken homes selling themselves cheap, the media reflect that. I think if society begins to value life by knowing that God valued them enough to give His Son Jesus we'd see that change. Perhaps the same goes with Christians who are giving into the pressure of the world to conform, they need to know that God will bless their work so they don't have to stoop to the world's level to sell a comic, we have the favor and grace of God peoples!
Anymoo, I admit as a women it makes me angry still I know it won't accomplish anything by trying to get back at men because the main problem is needing God at their core. I guess the only good thing about it is that I get more determined to push my creative levels and draw attractive women that are decent. ^_^ So I attached a female character I made as an example of my try at it.
Beloved in Grace,
Souba
Disney makes their girls too sexy? Attractive maybe. Bland and repetitive? Possibly. Too sexy? Hm. I may have to disagree with that one. (Except for maybe Esmerelda in Hunchback - but she's supposed to be that way).
I don't think "sexy" is the right term. I have no problems drawing a "sexy" woman if the script calls for it. What if the script calls for the wife of the male character decides to sashay around and act "sexy" - she might not even be "attractive" - but she is "sexy."
I think the term here is: "Sexualized". Sexualizing the woman is, yes, a common problem - sometimes done in a mistaken attempt at trying to create a woman that is "attractive".
So how does one "overly sexualize" a woman character?
1. Posing
Does the character tend to bend over a lot? Does she thrust out her hips a lot? Is there an over emphasis on certain parts of the body? Are certain areas drawn that end up being more suggestive than they should be? Are certain curves or poses used that might suggest more than they should?
2. Clothing choices
Does she have a low cut shirt? Are her pants too tight? Too low? Her dress? Does she wear 9 inch heels? Does she wear lacey stuff? Or does she have a boustier? Etc. etc. etc.
3. Face - expressions and actual facial structure:
Does she have pouty lips? Bedroom eyes? Too much make up? Is the face set up to look "sexy" all the time? Is the face swept back? Is hair a certain way? I think the face is probably one of the most important things to consider in this.
All these things combine in order to make the image say one thing or another. The artist needs to be aware of what they are portraying and why. The artist may be at fault for not considering the ramifications of their drawings.
The flip side is, the artist may be only be making the woman look that way because that's all they know from other comics and thinks that's how your supposed to portray women in comics. They may not even be aware that what they're drawing is overly sexual.
Now - it's not illustration per se, but the girl character in Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs is attractive but not "overly sexualized".
i have seen to many christian comics where the girl is way to SEXY.
Which comics are you referring to?
Joe King said:
But God still wants all the glory and our attention - even if there are breasts in the world and breasts on the page.
So as Christian creators ourselves, I don't think we will stop illustrating sexy women - provided that our Creator is glorified and gets the attention.
A practical tip would be to have the fashion, pose, and framing of sexy women focus on their faces rather than their bodies. So make sure you can draw women that don't look like men!
Buzz Dixon said:
Every last one of us is quite capable of drawing the Songs of Solomon. If fact, that would make a great comic jam idea. A comic jam about a rabbi trying to explain to a young man why he can't read the Song of Solomon for another year. Where's Dan-O? He's got to hear this one.
Martin Murtonen said:
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