aloha again!i have seen to many christian comics where the girl is way to SEXY.how do we show an attactive women in a comic and not send the wrong message. disney totally FAILS on this with most of their modern princess (pochahontes, ect) has anyone seen it done right before? the only example i could think of is JESSIE from toystory 2she is female, very cute, attactive and NOT sexy. anyone else?le0www.aydellon.com
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I disagree with the sentiments of several of these posts so far. It is not about us; our intentions, our hearts, our desires, or even our audience. Christ alone is all that matters. He is our reader and it is His heart, His Name, His Glory, His Holiness that we represent with our work. We have to ask ourselves, "Am I serving God or myself? Do I seek the praise of men or God?" Indeed no work of sinful man is worthy of representing Holy God! But we can sure take His name in vein by representing him in a way that is no better the work of the world.
As to the question I agree most with Timothy Gagnon. But I would add avoid tight clothing in general. Also if you represent the human body authentically, there are blemishes, misalignment (not just with the face but the whole body as well), bigger noses, smaller eyes, etc. These realities serve to kill sex appeal when represented in line like nothing else. Maybe because in the contrast of line to paper, it heightens our awareness of our lost perfection and fallen nature. Just a guess. But anyway, there is a reason pictures of supermodels go through Photoshop before they hit the magazine racks.
I think I'm the first woman to reply to this...uhh...so I'm a bit nervous, but I'll take a stab at it.
the first thing I have to admit is that it is, for me, rediculously hard to even put clothes on a female figure ive drawn once her basic form is laid out. From the perspective of an artist, there is nothing you can draw that is more beautiful than the female figure...and once that beauty is known, well, I don't really want to cover it up!
the human body, both male and female, is amazing-stunning-captivating...and it was made that way by God. But the point of the matter is that youre not just drawing BODIES, you are drawing PEOPLE. People ought to be portrayed as such. Do your characters' bodies/clothing/poses fit the story? Do they fit their personalities? Do they fit their profession/lifestyle? Or are they some exaggerated fantasy?
Tim gave some great guidelines to help get you started, but it comes down to this: what is in your heart to give to the world? What's coming out of your hands should be something that reflects who YOU are, and your worldview. That's what you should be drawing. Not marvel and not disney.
looking to Disney for some storytelling technique or plot points, great; but anything that would represent your worldview... not so much. I'm surprised Hannah Montana is still keeping her clothes on. Our Western culture is REALLY jacked up. You need to remember that its values are completely opposite of the values of the Kingdom of Heaven. I'm totally down with what Matt Baker said; maybe it's time for you to develop your own style, away from the influences youve had growing up.
It is an amazing amount of power that we have; as creators, as storytellers. We are reinforcing ideas in our own minds and hearts as we draw, and we are influencing others. It's rediculously scary, and it should keep us all at the feet of Christ.
I hope my thoughts help you out. Like Buzz said, intention is a major factor: whether or not there are clothes on your characters, your intentions will be naked in your visual storytelling.
A lot of comic book artists have really bad taste, unfortunately, and a life drawing class is something that would be beneficial. Many of the independent publishers feature women in a more realistic manner, which is why they are less successful at capturing the attention of teenage boys. Comics are for so many of us wish fulfillment media, and so the whole genre and the artist's who render for comics favor these over-the-top females (which actually look often like males in drag) and steroid popping muscle-heads. Really, I think it comes down to the artist's taste and what he or she has been exposed to and what's influenced them. If they only know comics, they tend to draw one dimensional characters. The market supports that choice, however!
I've had this issue a couple times. Part of it was I didn't consider what I was drawing "sexy" so much as normal - but others viewed it as such - so that meant I had to "tone down" the figure.
I believe that women are women and should be represented as such. Chopping off their anatomy to "de-sexualize" them is I think a disservice to a) reality and b) the truth.
Now, this could actually be more of a semantics thing - because it may not be "sexy" that's at issue - but "sensuality". As mentioned - Betty and Veronica in Archie comics could be considered sexy. They wear bikini's and other "sexy" style clothes - but for some reason are never ever "sensual". How does that work?
I could draw the same scene with the same woman two radically different ways - one where she is "sexy/sensual" - and one where she is not. She could be posed the exact same way but because of the intent of either the line, or placement of certain lines, the final outcome means completely different things.
As per drawing an attractive woman - and not have her look sexy...well in real life there are attractive women who are "sexy" to some, and not sexy to others. I think the biggest part of it is intent. So the answer is: Yes, you can draw an attractive woman, and not have her be "sexy" (though to some she may be). (You could also draw a sexy woman who isn't attractive - but that's a whole other ball of wax).
Can you draw Lara Croft style woman and not have her be sexy? Possibly. How? Well if that person is based on reality and that's how she really looks - well then, represent her as such. Where you lose the sexy is by representing her realistically - not in some skin tight outfit that reveals or suggests, and drop the sensual pouty lips, the bedroom eyes, and make her act and look like a real human and not some posed sex-pot and you'd be well on your way. Pay attention to those details. One little flick of the wrist and the eyes go from being "everyday woman" to "bedroom eyes". One person who's fantastic at drawing attractive girls - but not necessarily sexy (though some of his characters are intentionally so) is Gilbert Hernandez of Love and Rockets.
I suppose one way to counter the "sexy/sensual" is to model your character(s) on normal everyday women that you find attractive and draw them as they are. Make them wear regular everyday clothing, avoid clothing that leads the eye in certain ways, and don't make your lines "sensual" unless the story calls for it. Have them act in normal ways, imagine if they were your sister, wife or some such...and that may help temper their portrayal.
Interesting topic. Interesting insights. Just remember sometimes: "She ain't pretty she just looks that way."
Really, when you get right down to it is a weakness in the artist. The problem is that super heroines are supposed to be extremely physically fit which our society ALSO says is SEXY. Put an extremely athletic woman in a skin tight spandex body suit and you are you going to have a difficult time making that not look sexy.
There are a few artistic failings that most artists make when drawing women super heroes.
1. Comic Artists also tend to draw their females as extremely busty women. Anybody who goes to the gym regularly will tell you that the more fit a woman becomes one of the first thing to go are her breasts barring augmentation. Very few artists in comics draw female characters with small to average sized breasts. MOST comic artists have only 1 female form and one 1 male form. Outside of the costume and hair color/style all females and males are in form pretty much EXACTLY the same body. Again a weakness on the part of the artists. George Perez is one of the FEW artist I have ever come across who draws his characters with different body shapes and faces.
2. The costumes for both male and female figures in comic art would not REALLY look as do in real life. Musculature does not show through spandex. Look at all the Superman movies and TV Shows. In the 90's the Batman movies and the Flash TV show made special foam "muscle" suits so the actors would look more like do in the comics because in traditional spandex they looked too silly for TV. IN COMICS we basically draw the male of female body NAKED and draw lines to denote the Costume's design. This is a big problem because when a woman wears ANY type of "top" you SHOULD NOT see each breast separately. You would see a bust but you would NOT see the entire shape of each breast. Most Comic book costumes look more like BODY PAINT than clothing. The ONLY artist who consistently gets this right is Alex Ross. He achieves this by using models who are wearing costumes that he had made for them. Drawing the female form as super athletically fit and basically naked is going to cause problems for anyone who is trying not to make the character look "sexy". Need help drawing women in spandex and getting it right? Google Image Olympic Gymnastics or Swimming. You will see the difference immediately and should be able to (with practice) gets the breasts right.
3. The POSE. People do not stand like people in comics do. If you stood like a comic book character in real life you would look like an idiot and people would laugh at you. Female characters have the problem that their POSE is often in a "sexy position". Hips out, back arched, chest out, head cocked back and hair blowing in the wind. Super fit and wearing spandex. Try not to draw her in any pose you wouldn't let you daughter stand in.
4. The COSTUME. NO Christian female character should wear a costume that a female character from IMAGE comics would wear! Thigh High stiletto GO GO Boots and a thong cleavage exposing unitard must be avoided at all costs. She's a hero not a dominatrix porn star!
So in conclusion:
1. Ease up on the breasts. Shes a hero not a porn star.
2. Draw a woman in CLOTHES not BODY PAINT! Practice by drawing REAL people in REAL clothes! Need help drawing woman in SPANDEX, google image Olympic gymnasts.
3. Tone down the poses. Exiting poses are a must in comic books, but no self respecting woman sticks her chest and rear out THAT far.... EVER.
4. COSTUMES. She's a Hero not a Dominatrix Porn star.
i guess what im wondering, is it possible to show an attactive women and not make her sexy? its an age old church question. there are women at church that feel they have to dress like lara ingalls from little house on the prarie in order to be godly. to say that sexy is a realitve thing might be true but lets just say the typical american guy that reads comics. not from china or africa just the average comic reader. in my comic i want to add a love interest but im not sure how to repersent her. in fact humans do not exist in my comic just because i really dont even want to go there. i know given my nature i will slowly begin to start drawing lara croft type girls. it would be nice to have a women opinion but, something about comics that keeps most of them away! maybe its the sexy stereo types! i just read a christian comic where the superhero guy works with this smoking hot girl and they are discussing the lack of morals in the the general public! too funny! she has huge boobs tight little shirt and stilleto hills! ha ha! i am very curious to read creature tech thanks for the input everyone~
leo www.aydellon.com
Hey Mitch,
Did you deliberately spell it "pochaHOTes", or was that a mistake? Funny either way.
Mitch Martin said:
I think sexy is a relative term that falls on an individual basis. It all comes down to one's sensitivity on the subject. Showing skin can be sexy, but then again, not showing skin can be sexy. Thin, large, dressed, undressed. In the end, it's not the character or how (she) is drawn, but the story. If the story calls for a 15 year old native american girl who looks 21 dressed in deer hide that is the size of a towel, than thats the story and that is what she will look like. So draw it. Sex, and all that comes with it is a part of life, despite religion and ethics. We wouldn't be here if it was for sex. But I do agree with you. In a lot of cases, girls are drawn more sexy than needed. But, comics and movies are being made for one reason, and one reason only and that is to make money. So they are made for the general public and the public wants sexy. It has always been my opinion, that if I don't like a movie, I was clearly not the target market. For example, I didn't like Transformers II. But thats ok. I am NOT a high school student graduating and going off to college with cliche annoying parents. But, I am sure that the target market loved the movie, so in that...it was a good movie. Like everything else in the world.....it's all relative and individual.
I think sexy is a relative term that falls on an individual basis. It all comes down to one's sensitivity on the subject. Showing skin can be sexy, but then again, not showing skin can be sexy. Thin, large, dressed, undressed. In the end, it's not the character or how (she) is drawn, but the story. If the story calls for a 15 year old native american girl who looks 21 dressed in deer hide that is the size of a towel, than thats the story and that is what she will look like. So draw it. Sex, and all that comes with it is a part of life, despite religion and ethics. We wouldn't be here if it was for sex. But I do agree with you. In a lot of cases, girls are drawn more sexy than needed. But, comics and movies are being made for one reason, and one reason only and that is to make money. So they are made for the general public and the public wants sexy.
It has always been my opinion, that if I don't like a movie, I was clearly not the target market. For example, I didn't like Transformers II. But thats ok. I am NOT a high school student graduating and going off to college with cliche annoying parents. But, I am sure that the target market loved the movie, so in that...it was a good movie.
Like everything else in the world.....it's all relative and individual.
Exactly. Drawing average looking women is harder than it sounds, and yet not really.... and yet really.
That Wally Wood parody sounds like something worth reading. Anyway, there's nothing wrong with drawing beautiful women; there's a lot of beautiful but modest women around (less than there used to be). But I agree with you, Leo, that it would be a cool thing for christian artists to be able to show that in comics, rather than to continue drawing women who look like their barely-there outfits have been painted on with special figure-deforming paint. Last comment; if you want to see the topic of inner/outer beauty handled in an awesome way, check out Doug Tennapel's 'Creaturetech' graphic novel. I've never seen it handled better ('if you don't count the bible', I add, to appear to remain pious).
Buzz Dixon said:
Wally Wood did a great parody of Julius Caesar for the early full color MAD comic book that deconstructed comics cliches at the same time. He pointed out how in comics women were either hideously ugly or impossibly beautiful, with virtually no average looking real women!
Replies
As to the question I agree most with Timothy Gagnon. But I would add avoid tight clothing in general. Also if you represent the human body authentically, there are blemishes, misalignment (not just with the face but the whole body as well), bigger noses, smaller eyes, etc. These realities serve to kill sex appeal when represented in line like nothing else. Maybe because in the contrast of line to paper, it heightens our awareness of our lost perfection and fallen nature. Just a guess. But anyway, there is a reason pictures of supermodels go through Photoshop before they hit the magazine racks.
the first thing I have to admit is that it is, for me, rediculously hard to even put clothes on a female figure ive drawn once her basic form is laid out. From the perspective of an artist, there is nothing you can draw that is more beautiful than the female figure...and once that beauty is known, well, I don't really want to cover it up!
the human body, both male and female, is amazing-stunning-captivating...and it was made that way by God. But the point of the matter is that youre not just drawing BODIES, you are drawing PEOPLE. People ought to be portrayed as such. Do your characters' bodies/clothing/poses fit the story? Do they fit their personalities? Do they fit their profession/lifestyle? Or are they some exaggerated fantasy?
Tim gave some great guidelines to help get you started, but it comes down to this: what is in your heart to give to the world? What's coming out of your hands should be something that reflects who YOU are, and your worldview. That's what you should be drawing. Not marvel and not disney.
looking to Disney for some storytelling technique or plot points, great; but anything that would represent your worldview... not so much. I'm surprised Hannah Montana is still keeping her clothes on. Our Western culture is REALLY jacked up. You need to remember that its values are completely opposite of the values of the Kingdom of Heaven. I'm totally down with what Matt Baker said; maybe it's time for you to develop your own style, away from the influences youve had growing up.
It is an amazing amount of power that we have; as creators, as storytellers. We are reinforcing ideas in our own minds and hearts as we draw, and we are influencing others. It's rediculously scary, and it should keep us all at the feet of Christ.
I hope my thoughts help you out. Like Buzz said, intention is a major factor: whether or not there are clothes on your characters, your intentions will be naked in your visual storytelling.
I believe that women are women and should be represented as such. Chopping off their anatomy to "de-sexualize" them is I think a disservice to a) reality and b) the truth.
Now, this could actually be more of a semantics thing - because it may not be "sexy" that's at issue - but "sensuality". As mentioned - Betty and Veronica in Archie comics could be considered sexy. They wear bikini's and other "sexy" style clothes - but for some reason are never ever "sensual". How does that work?
I could draw the same scene with the same woman two radically different ways - one where she is "sexy/sensual" - and one where she is not. She could be posed the exact same way but because of the intent of either the line, or placement of certain lines, the final outcome means completely different things.
As per drawing an attractive woman - and not have her look sexy...well in real life there are attractive women who are "sexy" to some, and not sexy to others. I think the biggest part of it is intent. So the answer is: Yes, you can draw an attractive woman, and not have her be "sexy" (though to some she may be). (You could also draw a sexy woman who isn't attractive - but that's a whole other ball of wax).
Can you draw Lara Croft style woman and not have her be sexy? Possibly. How? Well if that person is based on reality and that's how she really looks - well then, represent her as such. Where you lose the sexy is by representing her realistically - not in some skin tight outfit that reveals or suggests, and drop the sensual pouty lips, the bedroom eyes, and make her act and look like a real human and not some posed sex-pot and you'd be well on your way. Pay attention to those details. One little flick of the wrist and the eyes go from being "everyday woman" to "bedroom eyes". One person who's fantastic at drawing attractive girls - but not necessarily sexy (though some of his characters are intentionally so) is Gilbert Hernandez of Love and Rockets.
I suppose one way to counter the "sexy/sensual" is to model your character(s) on normal everyday women that you find attractive and draw them as they are. Make them wear regular everyday clothing, avoid clothing that leads the eye in certain ways, and don't make your lines "sensual" unless the story calls for it. Have them act in normal ways, imagine if they were your sister, wife or some such...and that may help temper their portrayal.
Interesting topic. Interesting insights. Just remember sometimes: "She ain't pretty she just looks that way."
There are a few artistic failings that most artists make when drawing women super heroes.
1. Comic Artists also tend to draw their females as extremely busty women. Anybody who goes to the gym regularly will tell you that the more fit a woman becomes one of the first thing to go are her breasts barring augmentation. Very few artists in comics draw female characters with small to average sized breasts. MOST comic artists have only 1 female form and one 1 male form. Outside of the costume and hair color/style all females and males are in form pretty much EXACTLY the same body. Again a weakness on the part of the artists. George Perez is one of the FEW artist I have ever come across who draws his characters with different body shapes and faces.
2. The costumes for both male and female figures in comic art would not REALLY look as do in real life. Musculature does not show through spandex. Look at all the Superman movies and TV Shows. In the 90's the Batman movies and the Flash TV show made special foam "muscle" suits so the actors would look more like do in the comics because in traditional spandex they looked too silly for TV. IN COMICS we basically draw the male of female body NAKED and draw lines to denote the Costume's design. This is a big problem because when a woman wears ANY type of "top" you SHOULD NOT see each breast separately. You would see a bust but you would NOT see the entire shape of each breast. Most Comic book costumes look more like BODY PAINT than clothing. The ONLY artist who consistently gets this right is Alex Ross. He achieves this by using models who are wearing costumes that he had made for them. Drawing the female form as super athletically fit and basically naked is going to cause problems for anyone who is trying not to make the character look "sexy". Need help drawing women in spandex and getting it right? Google Image Olympic Gymnastics or Swimming. You will see the difference immediately and should be able to (with practice) gets the breasts right.
3. The POSE. People do not stand like people in comics do. If you stood like a comic book character in real life you would look like an idiot and people would laugh at you. Female characters have the problem that their POSE is often in a "sexy position". Hips out, back arched, chest out, head cocked back and hair blowing in the wind. Super fit and wearing spandex. Try not to draw her in any pose you wouldn't let you daughter stand in.
4. The COSTUME. NO Christian female character should wear a costume that a female character from IMAGE comics would wear! Thigh High stiletto GO GO Boots and a thong cleavage exposing unitard must be avoided at all costs. She's a hero not a dominatrix porn star!
So in conclusion:
1. Ease up on the breasts. Shes a hero not a porn star.
2. Draw a woman in CLOTHES not BODY PAINT! Practice by drawing REAL people in REAL clothes! Need help drawing woman in SPANDEX, google image Olympic gymnasts.
3. Tone down the poses. Exiting poses are a must in comic books, but no self respecting woman sticks her chest and rear out THAT far.... EVER.
4. COSTUMES. She's a Hero not a Dominatrix Porn star.
leo
www.aydellon.com
Did you deliberately spell it "pochaHOTes", or was that a mistake? Funny either way.
Mitch Martin said:
It has always been my opinion, that if I don't like a movie, I was clearly not the target market. For example, I didn't like Transformers II. But thats ok. I am NOT a high school student graduating and going off to college with cliche annoying parents. But, I am sure that the target market loved the movie, so in that...it was a good movie.
Like everything else in the world.....it's all relative and individual.
Plus.....Jessie was a toy. Pochahotes was a girl.
That Wally Wood parody sounds like something worth reading. Anyway, there's nothing wrong with drawing beautiful women; there's a lot of beautiful but modest women around (less than there used to be). But I agree with you, Leo, that it would be a cool thing for christian artists to be able to show that in comics, rather than to continue drawing women who look like their barely-there outfits have been painted on with special figure-deforming paint. Last comment; if you want to see the topic of inner/outer beauty handled in an awesome way, check out Doug Tennapel's 'Creaturetech' graphic novel. I've never seen it handled better ('if you don't count the bible', I add, to appear to remain pious).
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