I’ve recently been reading “Imagine- A Vision for Christians in the Arts”; a book that many of you may be familiar with by Steve Turner. Steve comes out of the gates with a concept that unfortunately is not uncommon: that a lot of Christian contemporary art is of poor quality, yet a great deal of art created by non-Christians is of good quality. His point is that many Christian artists use their redemptive experience as the sole driver in their artistic expression, forsaking basics like training, exploring creative culture and old fashioned practice the way that many (not all but many) non Christian artists do.Here’s how Turner breaks it down:1. Talent: You’re Born With It. Every artists starts out at the same point with being blessed with God-given talent and ability.2. Skill: You Have Control Over It. That’s what’s within your control. You have the ability to grow and perfect that God-given talent through the natural. Classes, training, school, tutorials. Not all artist do it, but those that perfect their skill command attention and a voice whether they are Christians or not.3. Inspiration: You Look For It. From people, from experiences and, for the Christian artist, from the Spirit of God Himself.Where the Christian artist gets in trouble is that they start with #1 (Talent), run with #3 (Inspiration) inspired by their own redemptive experience, but forsake a lot of #2 (Skill, or the further development of it) and don’t pursue sharpening their skills to compete for the attention of today’s audience.I’ve seen this frustrate the likes of the independent Christian comics artist and others that are inspired to create a project to reach the people of today, but fail to bring the quality up to that which the people of today have come to expect.What are your thoughts on the issue?
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Hey Tony!
I likeyour point about whether or not these pretty awesome Christian works can be found at say Barnes and Noble or Family Christian.
And the answer is that most times they cannot- but that is because of how stores do their marketing. I know Serenity had a really good stores presence (i've seen it at tons of Christian stores and even non Christian comic shops- way to go Buzz!) and even the Zondervan Z Graphic Novels have been in many Christian book stores and comic shops- but do they get in Barnes and Nobles or Borders?
They'll probably be available on their sites- but typically those books are not on the shelf at Borders- not because they are Christian, but because they are smaller press (or a division of a bigger publisher like Zondervan- they are a smaller part of the graphic novel industry)
And the small press/big press dynamic holds true for all comics publishing.
If you go to Borders these are the main publishers of graphic novels you will find on the shelves:
the big publishers
Viz
Marvel
DC
then the still a good sized publishers:
Image
TokyoPop (including Blu)
Yen Press
Dark Horse
then from smaller ones you might find a few books by Oni, some how to draw by Antarctic Press, and something here or there by Boom, IDW, and some of those other newer publishers that only put out a couple books that I cannot keep track of. frankly i don't know how their stuff gets picked up- maybe thru connections- and even then, i dont' know if it sells...
the problem is that stores are not taking the chance on indie books- and sometimes when they do, they'll return the books to the publisher- meaning that thepublisher has to buy them back (which can be especially bad when you printed a high run of books to sell to a major chain, only to have to give back money you had, and then have more books than you can really sell- at least at full price in a reasonable amount of time- and who wants to pay full price for a ten year old book?)
the second problem is that stores would buy them if consumers bought them- now if more retailers gave smaller presses a chance, they probably would sell more- but we all know the economy and digital age have been hard on books.
so if you want to see those books in stores- tell them that with your $$- ask them to special order the books (the mroe special orders is the more likley they'll order more on their own!) and tell your friends to do the same!
but that is just the trouble with the book market
a bookseller will probably carry anything that they can make money on- they don't care about "quality" or about faith message too much if it sells. it's just a hard market to crack. but if borders were to order 1,000 copies at first printing of a book and then that book were to sell that 1,000 copies in stores pretty quickly, then it would be a good step for us. but that would take 1,000 Christians purchasing the same graphic novel shortly after it came out- and i just dont' know if that many christians can get behind the same book that quickly. but if it is something we want to attain- we need ot get some more promotion and unity in our community and fanbase and i think it can happen.
just look at peanuts- the best Christian comic ever.
I agree with the breakdown. The problem with christian comics is what Martin mentioned, SuperpoweredChristianPersonWearingArmorOfGodColoredMud-and i'd add on HasAngelWingsFightsDemons!
Is Christian art second rate? most of it is. 50% is. Maybe 5% is first rate and the other 45% is third, fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh rate. The artist who do stand out are the ones who devote their lives to making their skill better day by day.
There always is that side to things where the rustic has it's charm - and cuts through the chaff.
There is also the side where things are embarrassingly bad - and it becomes a detriment to the message. BUT if the Holy Spirit is behind something - well, it'll work in spite of ourselves.
Ralph - you mention the cream of the crop. Though possibly some of them may be missing a little of that j'ai nai sais quoi? Exposure would be another issue.
Perhaps the issue is more that books that keep coming into everyone's consciousness in the Christian circles are the ones where people toot their horns the loudest, but aren't ready to actually go to market - and they're all the same. (I made some bad product myself at one point).
That is also not to say I don't have respect for people who complete a project -even if it's poorly done, since I am well aware of the amount of work it takes to create something in the creative market.
Don't feel too badly; most of today's secular comics cannot stand up to the best of the genre from decades past. Regarding believers, here's what the Scriptures say:
"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble are called, but God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence." 1 Corinthians 1:26-29
This may rub some Christians the wrong way, but it is the truth. However, I do believe we should do the best we can---to His praise and glory---with what we have (and what we can cultivate). Remember, we are beings with an eternal destiny. While the unsaved top professionals of the world may bask in their own (vain)glory for a fleeting lifetime, they will be tormented in hellfire forever and ever while we rejoice in the presence of our Saviour. I do not gloat over the punishment of the wicked, but the reality is that it is very hard to reach someone with the saving Gospel who is puffed up with pride, intoxicated with the accolades of men.
Those who are born again in Christ Jesus have been brought into the family of God, and He is the only perfect One. All others and all else pale in comparison. The world's best in any arena of endeavor is laughably crude next to His glorious splendor. If we keep our focus on the risen Messiah and are content to be His obedient children, He will use us to reach those who are open to truth. This is the real issue, and honing one's talents is secondary.
Jack Chick is the most published author in the world with 500 million comics tracts distributed in many languages, and his drawing is quite crude and doesn't meet professional standards. Yet his Gospel message is sound (some of his tracts on other topics make allegations that are questionable). He is a good example of the type of person spoken of in 1 Corinthians 1:26-29. Fred Carter draws superbly, yet Jack has told me that his tracts have always sold better than Fred's. To move with genuine unction and anointing by the Holy Spirit as we testify of Christ has nothing to do with talent or intellect, but with the preparation of the heart.
I guess with the volume that you cited, my immediate thoughts were that it boils down to exposure. How much of these quality publications are immediately accessible to the "general" Christian audience? Can they be found in the local Christian bookstore? If I were seeking them out for a teen, I wouldn't find them in an Barnes & Noble, would I?
Ralph Ellis Miley said:
PowerMark, Archangels, Kidz of the King by Reggie Byers, Revelation by Leo Bak, Empire by Christine Kerrick, Shelter of Wings by Lisa Hutchinson, Pakkin's Land by Gary Shipman, Picture Bible by David C. Cook, Z Graphic Novels, and the list goes on and on. I could site many more titles that are competitive with any number of major secular titles on the market. All you have to do is go on this site alone and find over 100 Christian artists whose work matches with some of the best work in the secular market.
So this notion that Christian art is second rate is unwarranted. Having been involved is small press and having attended many conventions over the years, there are quite a number of secular titles on the market, even those produced by Marvel and DC, whose art is second rate when compared to some of the Christian art on this site alone. Of course there is art that is produced by the Christian market that could be considered second rate, but that is also true of the secular market. Just go to the local comic book store and look through some of the titles. I, for one, would like to move beyond this notion that Christian art is second rate.
Then what happens is that, "I will be one to lift Christian art out from its mediocrity and have my titles stand beside Marvel and DC." How many times have I heard that before. And where do we go? We get secular artists. Just look at Metron Press and The Guardian Line and unfortunately, where are they now? If there were no talented Christian artists, well then maybe I could the arguement. But with Christian names like Todd Nauck, Mike Miller, Gary Martin, and many others, I see don't that being the case. There is nothing wrong with wanting a professional product on the market, but we've got to get this idea that Christian art is second rate.
PowerMark, Archangels, Kidz of the King by Reggie Byers, Revelation by Leo Bak, Empire by Christine Kerrick, Shelter of Wings by Lisa Hutchinson, Pakkin's Land by Gary Shipman, Picture Bible by David C. Cook, Z Graphic Novels, and the list goes on and on. I could site many more titles that are competitive with any number of major secular titles on the market. All you have to do is go on this site alone and find over 100 Christian artists whose work matches with some of the best work in the secular market.
So this notion that Christian art is second rate is unwarranted. Having been involved is small press and having attended many conventions over the years, there are quite a number of secular titles on the market, even those produced by Marvel and DC, whose art is second rate when compared to some of the Christian art on this site alone. Of course there is art that is produced by the Christian market that could be considered second rate, but that is also true of the secular market. Just go to the local comic book store and look through some of the titles. I, for one, would like to move beyond this notion that Christian art is second rate.
Then what happens is that, "I will be one to lift Christian art out from its mediocrity and have my titles stand beside Marvel and DC." How many times have I heard that before. And where do we go? We get secular artists. Just look at Metron Press and The Guardian Line and unfortunately, where are they now? If there were no talented Christian artists, well then maybe I could the arguement. But with Christian names like Todd Nauck, Mike Miller, Gary Martin, and many others, I see don't that being the case. There is nothing wrong with wanting a professional product on the market, but we've got to get this idea that Christian art is second rate.
I agree as well that there are a lot of lackluster products made by Christians. Though I may have to disagree with point 1 Talent: You’re Born With It. I think some people have the innate skills to be talented with something. I think others have to do step 2 and lots of hard work to find talent they never knew they had. (Though this might be more semantics than anything else).
However, a lot of them skip through trying to create the final output without any of the skills needed to produce a quality product - hence "SuperpoweredChristianPersonWearingArmorOfGodColoredMudTM over and over and over and over and over and over...
I think number 1 is somewhat of a myth. I think certain people have some natural ability, but I think we are too quick to chalk things up as being easy to people we consider "talented" or "gifted". This "talent" is nothing but a starting point. Where you take things from there is a matter of choice and hard work (sort of covered in point number 2).
I agree with the your point here. There are too many artists in and out of comics, Christian and non-Christian who only see the beginning (the realization that they can create art) and end of the journey (creating "good" art) with no focus on the hard road in between of dedication to the craft and the thankless hours of practice that it takes to create "good" artwork.
Replies
I likeyour point about whether or not these pretty awesome Christian works can be found at say Barnes and Noble or Family Christian.
And the answer is that most times they cannot- but that is because of how stores do their marketing. I know Serenity had a really good stores presence (i've seen it at tons of Christian stores and even non Christian comic shops- way to go Buzz!) and even the Zondervan Z Graphic Novels have been in many Christian book stores and comic shops- but do they get in Barnes and Nobles or Borders?
They'll probably be available on their sites- but typically those books are not on the shelf at Borders- not because they are Christian, but because they are smaller press (or a division of a bigger publisher like Zondervan- they are a smaller part of the graphic novel industry)
And the small press/big press dynamic holds true for all comics publishing.
If you go to Borders these are the main publishers of graphic novels you will find on the shelves:
the big publishers
Viz
Marvel
DC
then the still a good sized publishers:
Image
TokyoPop (including Blu)
Yen Press
Dark Horse
then from smaller ones you might find a few books by Oni, some how to draw by Antarctic Press, and something here or there by Boom, IDW, and some of those other newer publishers that only put out a couple books that I cannot keep track of. frankly i don't know how their stuff gets picked up- maybe thru connections- and even then, i dont' know if it sells...
the problem is that stores are not taking the chance on indie books- and sometimes when they do, they'll return the books to the publisher- meaning that thepublisher has to buy them back (which can be especially bad when you printed a high run of books to sell to a major chain, only to have to give back money you had, and then have more books than you can really sell- at least at full price in a reasonable amount of time- and who wants to pay full price for a ten year old book?)
the second problem is that stores would buy them if consumers bought them- now if more retailers gave smaller presses a chance, they probably would sell more- but we all know the economy and digital age have been hard on books.
so if you want to see those books in stores- tell them that with your $$- ask them to special order the books (the mroe special orders is the more likley they'll order more on their own!) and tell your friends to do the same!
but that is just the trouble with the book market
a bookseller will probably carry anything that they can make money on- they don't care about "quality" or about faith message too much if it sells. it's just a hard market to crack. but if borders were to order 1,000 copies at first printing of a book and then that book were to sell that 1,000 copies in stores pretty quickly, then it would be a good step for us. but that would take 1,000 Christians purchasing the same graphic novel shortly after it came out- and i just dont' know if that many christians can get behind the same book that quickly. but if it is something we want to attain- we need ot get some more promotion and unity in our community and fanbase and i think it can happen.
just look at peanuts- the best Christian comic ever.
Is Christian art second rate? most of it is. 50% is. Maybe 5% is first rate and the other 45% is third, fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh rate. The artist who do stand out are the ones who devote their lives to making their skill better day by day.
There is also the side where things are embarrassingly bad - and it becomes a detriment to the message. BUT if the Holy Spirit is behind something - well, it'll work in spite of ourselves.
Ralph - you mention the cream of the crop. Though possibly some of them may be missing a little of that j'ai nai sais quoi? Exposure would be another issue.
Perhaps the issue is more that books that keep coming into everyone's consciousness in the Christian circles are the ones where people toot their horns the loudest, but aren't ready to actually go to market - and they're all the same. (I made some bad product myself at one point).
That is also not to say I don't have respect for people who complete a project -even if it's poorly done, since I am well aware of the amount of work it takes to create something in the creative market.
Martin
"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble are called, but God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence." 1 Corinthians 1:26-29
This may rub some Christians the wrong way, but it is the truth. However, I do believe we should do the best we can---to His praise and glory---with what we have (and what we can cultivate). Remember, we are beings with an eternal destiny. While the unsaved top professionals of the world may bask in their own (vain)glory for a fleeting lifetime, they will be tormented in hellfire forever and ever while we rejoice in the presence of our Saviour. I do not gloat over the punishment of the wicked, but the reality is that it is very hard to reach someone with the saving Gospel who is puffed up with pride, intoxicated with the accolades of men.
Those who are born again in Christ Jesus have been brought into the family of God, and He is the only perfect One. All others and all else pale in comparison. The world's best in any arena of endeavor is laughably crude next to His glorious splendor. If we keep our focus on the risen Messiah and are content to be His obedient children, He will use us to reach those who are open to truth. This is the real issue, and honing one's talents is secondary.
Jack Chick is the most published author in the world with 500 million comics tracts distributed in many languages, and his drawing is quite crude and doesn't meet professional standards. Yet his Gospel message is sound (some of his tracts on other topics make allegations that are questionable). He is a good example of the type of person spoken of in 1 Corinthians 1:26-29. Fred Carter draws superbly, yet Jack has told me that his tracts have always sold better than Fred's. To move with genuine unction and anointing by the Holy Spirit as we testify of Christ has nothing to do with talent or intellect, but with the preparation of the heart.
Shalom,
Alec
I guess with the volume that you cited, my immediate thoughts were that it boils down to exposure. How much of these quality publications are immediately accessible to the "general" Christian audience? Can they be found in the local Christian bookstore? If I were seeking them out for a teen, I wouldn't find them in an Barnes & Noble, would I?
Ralph Ellis Miley said:
So this notion that Christian art is second rate is unwarranted. Having been involved is small press and having attended many conventions over the years, there are quite a number of secular titles on the market, even those produced by Marvel and DC, whose art is second rate when compared to some of the Christian art on this site alone. Of course there is art that is produced by the Christian market that could be considered second rate, but that is also true of the secular market. Just go to the local comic book store and look through some of the titles. I, for one, would like to move beyond this notion that Christian art is second rate.
Then what happens is that, "I will be one to lift Christian art out from its mediocrity and have my titles stand beside Marvel and DC." How many times have I heard that before. And where do we go? We get secular artists. Just look at Metron Press and The Guardian Line and unfortunately, where are they now? If there were no talented Christian artists, well then maybe I could the arguement. But with Christian names like Todd Nauck, Mike Miller, Gary Martin, and many others, I see don't that being the case. There is nothing wrong with wanting a professional product on the market, but we've got to get this idea that Christian art is second rate.
That's it for me and my stand on the soapbox.
However, a lot of them skip through trying to create the final output without any of the skills needed to produce a quality product - hence "SuperpoweredChristianPersonWearingArmorOfGodColoredMudTM over and over and over and over and over and over...
Never mind the writing.
I agree with the your point here. There are too many artists in and out of comics, Christian and non-Christian who only see the beginning (the realization that they can create art) and end of the journey (creating "good" art) with no focus on the hard road in between of dedication to the craft and the thankless hours of practice that it takes to create "good" artwork.
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