Buzz Dixon said:
THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST was not advertised as the Gospel itself but as a dramatic recreation of the Gospel, the same way church pagents with 8 year olds in bath robes and cotton beards are dramatic recreations. If you are saying there should be NO dramatic recreations of the Gospel, well, okay, that's an extreme position but at least it's a consistent one...
Gibson paid someone to translate the additions into Aramaic, for "authenticity" , He placed himself as well as a large sum of his money into the film. It is a bit different than Children doing a church pagent , unless of course their writer intentionally added things that don't line up with scripture.
I met a guy who was trying to teach false extra Biblical doctrine to children, Doctrine that flat out stood against Gods word. Thankfully he was removed from that position, once it was known.
The problem is that it is not like Gibson did not have enough material from the Gospels themselves that he had to create "filler" , he chose to add this, and other than in this thread, I have yet to hear a mainstream christian, point out the discrepancy, only to point non believer after non believer to it as if it were a jot and tittle recreation of events, further muddled by the Aramaic mask on the language used in the film.
I have almost always heard it referred to as a factual account , rather than a dramatic recreation, Are those stating it ignorant of the facts, probably, but that's the point, most people take what they are presented with as truth.
The Passion is a great movie, and helps me to refocus on what Christ did for me every time I watch it. I think it's great and God does use it as a tool for evangelism because I've seen it used in the lives of others. Case closed.
Buzz Dixon said: As far as Scripture indicates, Christ ate fewer than a dozen meals in his entire life. Surely that can't be correct. John 21: [24] This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. [25] And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
But-but-but Chris...! The Bible itself says a lot more things happened re Jesus than were written down in the Bible itself, right? So what's the problem with THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST having details that were written down/passed along outside the canonical text of the Bible? The Bible says more things happened than are recorded in it, there is no evidence to prove any of the extra-Biblical things in THE PASSION didn't happen, none of the extra-Biblical stuff affects the core Truth, so what's yer problem?!?!?
Because the scripture is talking about the writing down of the TRUTH of Jesus's Ministry. Mr. Gibson was making up stuff and MIXING it with truth. There lies the problem... No pun intended. :-)
and i think what you're saying sounds good. if we define the Bible as God's Word whether humans consider it canon or not- i think we're good.
did they miss a book or two when gathering the canon- or did they add a book they shouldn't have? i don't really think so. i think we have a God who is powerful enough to manage His revelation. but i do agree that humans misinterpret, mistranslate, and make other intentional or unintentional mistakes all the time. and we do have to work with Scripture from there.
I was taught in my christian studies bachelor's that the Bible may or not be true and we have to make the best of it since it is the only thing we have. i don't agree with that. I believe the Bible as it was originally written was inerrant. sure we've made mistakes and we have to make the best of those- but God's Word is perfect.
well clearly you have had experience with skater punk kids- and since i was also among the skater punks as a teen, i know where you're coming from. i thought you may have been someone who was throwing out a cool term such as skater punk without having had experience with them.
but i will say that i never found skater punks as a whole to be entire hostile to the gospel- and maybe you're describing something similar, too.
it's true that you can't really quote scripture to anyone who does not already hold a value of Scripture. but we still use Scripture to show us how to live in regards to people who don't value it. so we're still kind of using it.
either way, i definitely believe in the Bible adn that it was Scripture as it was being written and that people valued it as Scripture even before the Bible as we know it was considered canon. early church fathers had many lists of such books- with only minor discrepencies which is pretty much how we got what we have now. and this was in the centuries before constantine.
also, just becuase something isn't in the Bible doesn't mean it didn't happen- however, i trust the record of the Bible over any other ancient records. and if anything other than the Bible contradicts the Bible, I'm goign to adhere to the Bible. also, it does have to be taken into context. when the Bible refers to the "four corners of the world" i do not think it is affirming that the earth is flat but that it is an expression to refer to the entire world. i dont' havea problem with understanding the Bible as literal, even in light of expressinos as such.
i don't think i completely disagree with you- tho.
I started to write a defense on the canon, in response to some of what you've expressed, but instead i think i will ask-
What do you know about Skater punk kids and sharing the gospel with them?
You call them out, but truly, if you're using your example of that sort of person, i'm just wondering what sort of application you've had to that. i'm not saying you haven't but it will just validate your point in my eyes.
I see no problem with violence in comics, but not violence for the sake of violence. There are times when the good guys must use violence to defeat the bad guys, and I think if that is what is illustrated in our comics, then I don't see an issue. Remember, God will violently deal with the devil in the end, and as many others have said, God used Israel in war to enact His justice and to prosper His people.
Buzz Dixon said:</<br /> As far as Scripture indicates, Christ ate fewer than a dozen meals in his entire life. Surely that can't be correct.
John 21:
[24] This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
[25] And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
John tells us in the verse above that if everything that Jesus did Were written down, that the world could not contain all of the books required to document it. You commented that Christ is only mentioned in scripture as having a dozen or so meals, I would assume he also had a bowel movement following all of his meals, BUT
do you, or I or anyone else really need to know that? What God has given us in the Scriptures is sufficient to preach salvation for the lost, and to teach rebuke and edify. What more do we Really need?
We all want to know more about God, But What I find so heartbreaking is that we seek that information out everywhere but his Word, As we are told in the following verses, that all scripture is Given by God, and is beneficial to us All.
2 tim 3
[10] But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
[11] Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
[12] Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
[13] But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
[14] But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2Tim.4
[1] I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
[2] Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
[3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
[4] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
I continued the verse into the next chapter to demonstrate how many are now turning to things we flat out know are fabled, and they are treating them as truth. Scientology, I have heard of some wishing to start a religion from Star wars. And I read an article a couple of weeks back where people were thinking of starting a religion from Cameron's avatar.
People are so desperate for something that they make things they know aren't real, something they want to worship. Do you not see how that is little different than the Idolatry that the scriptures tell us occurred, and that most history books elaborate on, in Greco/roman mythology.
You tried to throw an analogy about the Kennedy assasination out there, as some sort of qualification. But its not the same thing.
The scriptures are the only tried and true thing we currently have from God. And God tells us in them that he holds his word, even above his own name. So when we point to the scripture to try and point out what it says, and we are told to test all things, especially spirits, to see if they are of God. God does not contradict his word, so if you have someone or something telling you something and what they are telling you does not line up with Gods word, then they are wrong.
Like I stated about bathroom habits earlier, do you really need someone to spell out how to do that?
But when we have clear scriptural examples to live as holy as we possibly can, do you really need more proof than what God has already provided?
Are you kidding? Who says that only the Bible contains the word of God? The Bible wasn't even formed until after that was written. The Bible as we know it was formed under Constantine I believe and that was a long time after the books were written. Shunning everything except the Bible is dangerous thinking.
Don't you think that passage is more about things like what the Catholic church has added in the past? Like indulgences, praying to saints, the Pope...OK... I'm about to get on a soap box here...
-- R Jay
Shannon H said:
The Bible says not to add to or take away from the word of God.
Kidding? No.
With or without a Constantine, Gods' word has always made it safely through the generations. God doesn't need anyone's help to preserve The Word. It is sufficient. God said he would raise up the rocks to serve him if no one else is willing.
I'm not sure where you are trying to go with "shunning everything except the Bible is dangerous thinking."
But....
JESUS CHRIST is the ONLY truth, the ONLY way, and the ONLY light. NO MAN can see the father except through Jesus Christ.
It amazes me how many people (churches) got sucked into The Passion. That movie is truth laced with fiction, which makes it ALL false doctrine.
Wow...Really? I mean I agree that the story of Christ's crucifixion really doesn't need embellishment but look at what your saying. "truth laced with fiction..." Isn't that what Parables are? And we all know Christ's view on parables. It's all in how you use it. As you said, Good old Smithy used it to his advantage and glory, not God's but it's the same mixture. Any tool can be misused, but if we just threw them all out we would be powerless. One of my pastor's favorite sayings is "He can't move a parked car", I always slyly respond "yes he can!", but I know what he means, and how more parked can you be than throwing out all your tools?
-- R Jay
Yeah...really...
I dont remember any parables about the jolly green giant or aliens from Mars. But you put Jesus's name in it, give him a few lines, make it a movie, and all of a sudden it's a valuable parable?.....I dont think so.
Yeah, I know...there was NO jolly green giant or aliens in the passion. But, you add a female Satan, Jesus's mother helping him pick up his cross (because he couldn't bare it on his own...so on and so on..) and the passion becomes nothing more than a bed time story. (sorry, no time to do a scene by scene)
You can't just make up a story with a moral and call it a parable. And even worse, write it down, make a movie of it, and call it the Gospel.
Replies
THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST was not advertised as the Gospel itself but as a dramatic recreation of the Gospel, the same way church pagents with 8 year olds in bath robes and cotton beards are dramatic recreations. If you are saying there should be NO dramatic recreations of the Gospel, well, okay, that's an extreme position but at least it's a consistent one...
Gibson paid someone to translate the additions into Aramaic, for "authenticity" , He placed himself as well as a large sum of his money into the film. It is a bit different than Children doing a church pagent , unless of course their writer intentionally added things that don't line up with scripture.
I met a guy who was trying to teach false extra Biblical doctrine to children, Doctrine that flat out stood against Gods word. Thankfully he was removed from that position, once it was known.
The problem is that it is not like Gibson did not have enough material from the Gospels themselves that he had to create "filler" , he chose to add this, and other than in this thread, I have yet to hear a mainstream christian, point out the discrepancy, only to point non believer after non believer to it as if it were a jot and tittle recreation of events, further muddled by the Aramaic mask on the language used in the film.
I have almost always heard it referred to as a factual account , rather than a dramatic recreation, Are those stating it ignorant of the facts, probably, but that's the point, most people take what they are presented with as truth.
Because the scripture is talking about the writing down of the TRUTH of Jesus's Ministry. Mr. Gibson was making up stuff and MIXING it with truth. There lies the problem... No pun intended. :-)
and i think what you're saying sounds good. if we define the Bible as God's Word whether humans consider it canon or not- i think we're good.
did they miss a book or two when gathering the canon- or did they add a book they shouldn't have? i don't really think so. i think we have a God who is powerful enough to manage His revelation. but i do agree that humans misinterpret, mistranslate, and make other intentional or unintentional mistakes all the time. and we do have to work with Scripture from there.
I was taught in my christian studies bachelor's that the Bible may or not be true and we have to make the best of it since it is the only thing we have. i don't agree with that. I believe the Bible as it was originally written was inerrant. sure we've made mistakes and we have to make the best of those- but God's Word is perfect.
well clearly you have had experience with skater punk kids- and since i was also among the skater punks as a teen, i know where you're coming from. i thought you may have been someone who was throwing out a cool term such as skater punk without having had experience with them.
but i will say that i never found skater punks as a whole to be entire hostile to the gospel- and maybe you're describing something similar, too.
it's true that you can't really quote scripture to anyone who does not already hold a value of Scripture. but we still use Scripture to show us how to live in regards to people who don't value it. so we're still kind of using it.
either way, i definitely believe in the Bible adn that it was Scripture as it was being written and that people valued it as Scripture even before the Bible as we know it was considered canon. early church fathers had many lists of such books- with only minor discrepencies which is pretty much how we got what we have now. and this was in the centuries before constantine.
also, just becuase something isn't in the Bible doesn't mean it didn't happen- however, i trust the record of the Bible over any other ancient records. and if anything other than the Bible contradicts the Bible, I'm goign to adhere to the Bible. also, it does have to be taken into context. when the Bible refers to the "four corners of the world" i do not think it is affirming that the earth is flat but that it is an expression to refer to the entire world. i dont' havea problem with understanding the Bible as literal, even in light of expressinos as such.
i don't think i completely disagree with you- tho.
thanks again!
dan
I started to write a defense on the canon, in response to some of what you've expressed, but instead i think i will ask-
What do you know about Skater punk kids and sharing the gospel with them?
You call them out, but truly, if you're using your example of that sort of person, i'm just wondering what sort of application you've had to that. i'm not saying you haven't but it will just validate your point in my eyes.
Thanks so much!
John 21:
[24] This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
[25] And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
John tells us in the verse above that if everything that Jesus did Were written down, that the world could not contain all of the books required to document it. You commented that Christ is only mentioned in scripture as having a dozen or so meals, I would assume he also had a bowel movement following all of his meals, BUT
do you, or I or anyone else really need to know that? What God has given us in the Scriptures is sufficient to preach salvation for the lost, and to teach rebuke and edify. What more do we Really need?
We all want to know more about God, But What I find so heartbreaking is that we seek that information out everywhere but his Word, As we are told in the following verses, that all scripture is Given by God, and is beneficial to us All.
2 tim 3
[10] But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
[11] Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
[12] Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
[13] But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
[14] But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2Tim.4
[1] I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
[2] Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
[3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
[4] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
I continued the verse into the next chapter to demonstrate how many are now turning to things we flat out know are fabled, and they are treating them as truth. Scientology, I have heard of some wishing to start a religion from Star wars. And I read an article a couple of weeks back where people were thinking of starting a religion from Cameron's avatar.
People are so desperate for something that they make things they know aren't real, something they want to worship. Do you not see how that is little different than the Idolatry that the scriptures tell us occurred, and that most history books elaborate on, in Greco/roman mythology.
You tried to throw an analogy about the Kennedy assasination out there, as some sort of qualification. But its not the same thing.
The scriptures are the only tried and true thing we currently have from God. And God tells us in them that he holds his word, even above his own name. So when we point to the scripture to try and point out what it says, and we are told to test all things, especially spirits, to see if they are of God. God does not contradict his word, so if you have someone or something telling you something and what they are telling you does not line up with Gods word, then they are wrong.
Like I stated about bathroom habits earlier, do you really need someone to spell out how to do that?
But when we have clear scriptural examples to live as holy as we possibly can, do you really need more proof than what God has already provided?
Kidding? No.
With or without a Constantine, Gods' word has always made it safely through the generations. God doesn't need anyone's help to preserve The Word. It is sufficient. God said he would raise up the rocks to serve him if no one else is willing.
I'm not sure where you are trying to go with "shunning everything except the Bible is dangerous thinking."
But....
JESUS CHRIST is the ONLY truth, the ONLY way, and the ONLY light. NO MAN can see the father except through Jesus Christ.
Anything else is ASHES in the FIRE.
Yeah...really...
I dont remember any parables about the jolly green giant or aliens from Mars. But you put Jesus's name in it, give him a few lines, make it a movie, and all of a sudden it's a valuable parable?.....I dont think so.
Yeah, I know...there was NO jolly green giant or aliens in the passion. But, you add a female Satan, Jesus's mother helping him pick up his cross (because he couldn't bare it on his own...so on and so on..) and the passion becomes nothing more than a bed time story. (sorry, no time to do a scene by scene)
You can't just make up a story with a moral and call it a parable. And even worse, write it down, make a movie of it, and call it the Gospel.
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