Tattooing has allowed it ’s artists to go from being backroom Picassos to MTV celebrities.But is this art form for the Christian Visual artist?I bounced this off of our "Art Lessons from God!" Online Community to see what the thoughts were about the subject >>
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Live by grace, and don't be the reason to make your brothers fall. That's also my take on it.
Someone I'm discipling asked me if getting a tattoo would be a sin. He even cited that verse in Leviticus for me.
I personally wouldn't get a tattoo... just like I wouldn't wear a bright yellow shirt to class so I was inclined to discourage him from getting one.
I believe however, that God loves us so much that he could use the most tattooed man or woman to witness to others similarly tattooed.
However having tattoos of demons, the occult, wicca, symbols of death & rebellion, possibly even dragons and serpents may bring unnecessary and unwelcome spiritual warfare right into one's body. Not as worse as undergoing the knife to be a transvestite would be -- but it is my opinion, based from stories I've heard, that God would absolutely love to free this person from such designs.
I also was expressing an "understanding of Scripture and life application", no smack down intended. If those scriptures do not apply to you, if there was no conviction, then by all means ignore what I had to say. Nevertheless, there is nothing loving, no expression of grace, and no righteousness in ignoring the lost.
If you really want to enter into a private discussion with me in email, by all means feel free to initiate. I would love the opportunity to fully explain, whatever you did not understand. If, however, you are going to accuse me of anything on the public forum, at least have the fortitude to actually cite the infraction and not just allude to it. If I misrepresented your words anywhere, I would appologize. Come if you have something against me. (Matt 18:15) Lets not be vague about it though.
You wrote,"Christians are sinners. Period."
I would point out to you the following:
2Pe 2:19 They (false teachers of verse 1)promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity-for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.
John 8:34 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.
Christians are free from sin, are servants of righteousness, and have fruit:
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
This is further reflected in John 1.
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
I submit that saved Christians are not "of the devil" instead they are free from sin, and have become servants to righteousness.
It is not my intention to ruin anything for you. I do not even know you. I merely ask that you, and those who agree with you, to spend sometime in self reflection. I would encourage you to, as Paul said: Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2Cr 13:5 )
Enjoy the board, but understand that in matters of faith people should speak up when they see false teachings. By all means correct me if I err. It is certainly better to know now than in the next life. I would see your concern as true Christian love.
wow! i totally just got smacked down! i simply expressed an understanding of Scripture and life application.
I really wanted to further debate theology and logical fallacies with you, but I’m not going to do it in a public forum. If you would like to correspond otherwise, feel free to e-mail me.
I just wish you had not taken things I said out of context- and I will admit that your approach does not encourage me to want to hear what you have to say. When you quoted me, you could have quoted complete statements and not segments which gave my words a different meaning.
i'm not trying to build a doctrine or to say that popular opinion deterines what is right or wrong.
So will I be obedient to God? I will admit, I am struggling! I am probably never fully obedient to God- but I’m trusting on Christ and his grace- without which I am nothing. I should never sin that grace may abound, but when I do sin, even consciously, I am forgiven!
I do have lots of friends who are Christians and who have tattoos. In fact, I might go so far as to say that they have Christian tattoos! I personally don’t know anyone who professing to be a Christian participates in witchcraft. Or at least I don’t know that I do. If I did, I would help them in this area and show hem that you cannot practice Christianity and witchcraft. I would also talk with them about what it means to be saved and ask them if they really were interested in following Christ, and if they were, why they persisted in witchcraft. I do not want to be rude, but I do wonder how this is going for you.
But, even if having or getting a tattoo is a sin, then if someone is a Christian, they could still get a tattoo physically and be forgiven of it. I don’t see this as different from any other sin- if it actually is a sin for NT believers. Christians are sinners. Period. It would be nice if we did not sin, but we do. If one is in Christ, no sin can separate him or her from Christ. I know Christians who have tattoos just like I know Christians who are sinners (if it is a sin).
And I am not saying to ignore any part of Scripture.
But I would like to point to
Matthew 23:23-24
23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
And likewise Luke 11:42
42"Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone."
What I was saying was that if tattoos are a sin we should focus more on mercy, love, justice, and faithfulness, anyway. Why do we get so caught up on smaller gray areas and ignore matters of the heart? So often that is what gets non-Christians to condemn us close minded, judgmental, or antiquated.
We are never going to follow all of the laws, which is why we are saved by grace, through faith. So if we are going to follow some of the law, why don’t we focus on the bigger issues?
And anyway, I still see the 1 law on tattoos (especially when taken in context) to equate to beard restrictions, wearing polyester, or even eating shrimp or ham. If one trims his sideburns, I don’t think one can call out Christians with tattoos. And if one grows his sideburns to be righteous before the law, I would encourage one to read the New Testament and trust Christ’s grace instead of trying to be righteous by the law.
and weren't you the guy who i was encouraging a few days ago in responses to one of your posts? I really like these message boards, even when people disagree, they are usually pretty understanding about it. please dont' ruin things forme...
You are not the first person to say this, but I think it needs to be addressed.
"i know tons of christians with tattoos..."
Really? Are you sure.
I know tons of self professed "Christians" that smoke pot, fornicate, and participate in witchcraft. Does that exonerate these activities as well? Of course not...
You are engaging in a logical fallacy of Ad Populum
This is truly a weak premise upon which to build a doctrine.
None of the Bible writers appealed to popular belief, rather they depended on the Word of God.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Understand that I am not saying that everyone who gets a tattoo is going to hell. Merely that God has expressed himself in the matter of marking our bodies.
Jesus asked, And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? (Luke 6:46)
Daniel,"i don't think that tattoos in general seem to have any spiritual significance. to me"
Its not about you... It is about Him.
I think there is a much bigger issue here than tattoos. One of rebellion. Are we the Lords? or are we in rebellion to God?
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
I find these versus in 1 John to be very sobering. I would encourage anyone who thinks the Bible is irrelevant in anyway to search their heart.
Daniel,"is there like one verse in the OT about not getting tattoos? yes." You answered your own question. Now the only question is will you be obedient.
i know tons of christians with tattoos and i don't think that tattoos in general seem to have any spiritual significance. to me, i don't get tattoos, primarily because i don't think i could ever fnd an image that i loved so much i would want it on my body forever, let alone that if it didn't come out as good as i expected, i dont' think i could handle it!
the second reason is a health reason. tattooing can be dangerous- especially when it is done in unsanitary places by non-professionals. you wouldn't have a surgery done by an ametuer in the back of a long john silvers- why get a tatoo like that. it's still messing with your blood and skin and needles.
now i will say that if someoen gets tattoos as an escape mechanism, then that would be bad, or for the pain, same deal. but then the issue isn't the tattoo, but looking to something other than God and faith for answers in life. personally, i look to comic books or drawing my own Christian comics instead of God or faith for answers in life. that's probably worse than getting tattoos (except for the health...)
and tattoos and meanings- tattoos and any symbols meaning comes from whatever you give it. a frog could symbolize God's creation of a frog. period (now a sexy lady frog- i don't knwo what that means- but that is up to the guy wearing the tattoo, not the artist who drew it for cash)
is there like one verse in the OT about not getting tattoos? yes. are there tons of verses in the OT and NT about loving poeple? yes. i am not very good at loving people. if i had problems with tattoos, i think my issue would be to figure out lovig people and then to figure out not getting tattoos.
Mal 3:6a For I [am] the LORD, I change not;
Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
(Tied together perfectly in John 1:1)
The new testament is filled with old testament scripture, and teachings. Both Jesus and Paul taught extensively from the Torah. I think one is hard pressed not to discard an OT teaching without specific Biblical instruction to do so.
IMHO
Personally, I will stay away from tattoos...I generally find them not to be God honoring, and the believers, I know, who indulge in them seem to be torn in their walk.
I have the same opinion. I think you can´t really say that it is sin but on the other side it isn´t holy at all, what we christians should be considert of.
Casey said:
I think the problem you may find here is that Christians and tattoos don't really mix well with each other. I mean, you can always say that tattooing is an art, but that's not the issue that Christians have with them. It's that tattoos go on the skin of the human body, something generally considered sacred and holy. It is almost like spray painting a temple, no matter how pretty the tattoo, it's almost like vandalizing God's home in you. I don't want to smash your ambitions or anything, but I always thought tattoos were kind of a rebel thing. Maybe you could find a cool way to do it that wasn't so... defiant?
I recently got a tattoo. it took me 25 YEARS to get one. and i am extremely artsy, and have an artsy uncle i look up to that has sleeves. I always thought it looked cool (better than none) which in that would be a better way.
in the old testaments families would build alters of stone and leave them there when god did something amazing for them. so that in the future when other generations would pass, they would be able to see what great things God did.
i have an amazing story that happened to me recently. and i celebrated by getting a tattoo.
it is a topic that I have had many good discussions about. i completely understand both sides.
its all how you view things. and people need to relax and trust God that their views on how they see things, and someone elses might be different.
Replies
Someone I'm discipling asked me if getting a tattoo would be a sin. He even cited that verse in Leviticus for me.
I personally wouldn't get a tattoo... just like I wouldn't wear a bright yellow shirt to class so I was inclined to discourage him from getting one.
I believe however, that God loves us so much that he could use the most tattooed man or woman to witness to others similarly tattooed.
However having tattoos of demons, the occult, wicca, symbols of death & rebellion, possibly even dragons and serpents may bring unnecessary and unwelcome spiritual warfare right into one's body. Not as worse as undergoing the knife to be a transvestite would be -- but it is my opinion, based from stories I've heard, that God would absolutely love to free this person from such designs.
I also was expressing an "understanding of Scripture and life application", no smack down intended. If those scriptures do not apply to you, if there was no conviction, then by all means ignore what I had to say. Nevertheless, there is nothing loving, no expression of grace, and no righteousness in ignoring the lost.
If you really want to enter into a private discussion with me in email, by all means feel free to initiate. I would love the opportunity to fully explain, whatever you did not understand. If, however, you are going to accuse me of anything on the public forum, at least have the fortitude to actually cite the infraction and not just allude to it. If I misrepresented your words anywhere, I would appologize. Come if you have something against me. (Matt 18:15) Lets not be vague about it though.
You wrote,"Christians are sinners. Period."
I would point out to you the following:
2Pe 2:19 They (false teachers of verse 1)promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity-for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.
John 8:34 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.
Christians are free from sin, are servants of righteousness, and have fruit:
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
This is further reflected in John 1.
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
I submit that saved Christians are not "of the devil" instead they are free from sin, and have become servants to righteousness.
It is not my intention to ruin anything for you. I do not even know you. I merely ask that you, and those who agree with you, to spend sometime in self reflection. I would encourage you to, as Paul said: Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2Cr 13:5 )
Enjoy the board, but understand that in matters of faith people should speak up when they see false teachings. By all means correct me if I err. It is certainly better to know now than in the next life. I would see your concern as true Christian love.
God Bless,
Robert
I really wanted to further debate theology and logical fallacies with you, but I’m not going to do it in a public forum. If you would like to correspond otherwise, feel free to e-mail me.
I just wish you had not taken things I said out of context- and I will admit that your approach does not encourage me to want to hear what you have to say. When you quoted me, you could have quoted complete statements and not segments which gave my words a different meaning.
i'm not trying to build a doctrine or to say that popular opinion deterines what is right or wrong.
So will I be obedient to God? I will admit, I am struggling! I am probably never fully obedient to God- but I’m trusting on Christ and his grace- without which I am nothing. I should never sin that grace may abound, but when I do sin, even consciously, I am forgiven!
I do have lots of friends who are Christians and who have tattoos. In fact, I might go so far as to say that they have Christian tattoos! I personally don’t know anyone who professing to be a Christian participates in witchcraft. Or at least I don’t know that I do. If I did, I would help them in this area and show hem that you cannot practice Christianity and witchcraft. I would also talk with them about what it means to be saved and ask them if they really were interested in following Christ, and if they were, why they persisted in witchcraft. I do not want to be rude, but I do wonder how this is going for you.
But, even if having or getting a tattoo is a sin, then if someone is a Christian, they could still get a tattoo physically and be forgiven of it. I don’t see this as different from any other sin- if it actually is a sin for NT believers. Christians are sinners. Period. It would be nice if we did not sin, but we do. If one is in Christ, no sin can separate him or her from Christ. I know Christians who have tattoos just like I know Christians who are sinners (if it is a sin).
And I am not saying to ignore any part of Scripture.
But I would like to point to
Matthew 23:23-24
23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
And likewise Luke 11:42
42"Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone."
What I was saying was that if tattoos are a sin we should focus more on mercy, love, justice, and faithfulness, anyway. Why do we get so caught up on smaller gray areas and ignore matters of the heart? So often that is what gets non-Christians to condemn us close minded, judgmental, or antiquated.
We are never going to follow all of the laws, which is why we are saved by grace, through faith. So if we are going to follow some of the law, why don’t we focus on the bigger issues?
And anyway, I still see the 1 law on tattoos (especially when taken in context) to equate to beard restrictions, wearing polyester, or even eating shrimp or ham. If one trims his sideburns, I don’t think one can call out Christians with tattoos. And if one grows his sideburns to be righteous before the law, I would encourage one to read the New Testament and trust Christ’s grace instead of trying to be righteous by the law.
and weren't you the guy who i was encouraging a few days ago in responses to one of your posts? I really like these message boards, even when people disagree, they are usually pretty understanding about it. please dont' ruin things forme...
You are not the first person to say this, but I think it needs to be addressed.
"i know tons of christians with tattoos..."
Really? Are you sure.
I know tons of self professed "Christians" that smoke pot, fornicate, and participate in witchcraft. Does that exonerate these activities as well? Of course not...
You are engaging in a logical fallacy of Ad Populum
This is truly a weak premise upon which to build a doctrine.
None of the Bible writers appealed to popular belief, rather they depended on the Word of God.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Understand that I am not saying that everyone who gets a tattoo is going to hell. Merely that God has expressed himself in the matter of marking our bodies.
Jesus asked, And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? (Luke 6:46)
Daniel,"i don't think that tattoos in general seem to have any spiritual significance. to me"
Its not about you... It is about Him.
I think there is a much bigger issue here than tattoos. One of rebellion. Are we the Lords? or are we in rebellion to God?
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
I find these versus in 1 John to be very sobering. I would encourage anyone who thinks the Bible is irrelevant in anyway to search their heart.
Daniel,"is there like one verse in the OT about not getting tattoos? yes." You answered your own question. Now the only question is will you be obedient.
God Bless,
Robert
the second reason is a health reason. tattooing can be dangerous- especially when it is done in unsanitary places by non-professionals. you wouldn't have a surgery done by an ametuer in the back of a long john silvers- why get a tatoo like that. it's still messing with your blood and skin and needles.
now i will say that if someoen gets tattoos as an escape mechanism, then that would be bad, or for the pain, same deal. but then the issue isn't the tattoo, but looking to something other than God and faith for answers in life. personally, i look to comic books or drawing my own Christian comics instead of God or faith for answers in life. that's probably worse than getting tattoos (except for the health...)
and tattoos and meanings- tattoos and any symbols meaning comes from whatever you give it. a frog could symbolize God's creation of a frog. period (now a sexy lady frog- i don't knwo what that means- but that is up to the guy wearing the tattoo, not the artist who drew it for cash)
is there like one verse in the OT about not getting tattoos? yes. are there tons of verses in the OT and NT about loving poeple? yes. i am not very good at loving people. if i had problems with tattoos, i think my issue would be to figure out lovig people and then to figure out not getting tattoos.
Mal 3:6a For I [am] the LORD, I change not;
Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
(Tied together perfectly in John 1:1)
The new testament is filled with old testament scripture, and teachings. Both Jesus and Paul taught extensively from the Torah. I think one is hard pressed not to discard an OT teaching without specific Biblical instruction to do so.
IMHO
Personally, I will stay away from tattoos...I generally find them not to be God honoring, and the believers, I know, who indulge in them seem to be torn in their walk.
God Bless,
Robert
Casey said:
body is an alter?
differences?
I recently got a tattoo. it took me 25 YEARS to get one. and i am extremely artsy, and have an artsy uncle i look up to that has sleeves. I always thought it looked cool (better than none) which in that would be a better way.
in the old testaments families would build alters of stone and leave them there when god did something amazing for them. so that in the future when other generations would pass, they would be able to see what great things God did.
i have an amazing story that happened to me recently. and i celebrated by getting a tattoo.
it is a topic that I have had many good discussions about. i completely understand both sides.
its all how you view things. and people need to relax and trust God that their views on how they see things, and someone elses might be different.
good discussion.
From Revelations 19:16---
"And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."
Does Jesus have a tatoo when he returns?
Matthew M. said:
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